27-07-2004 07:11									#1
	Important Issue - Read Please Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

A rather lamentable issue came up during the chat a few minutes ago. In a nutshell, me and Kloreep had agreed on to begin playing the turn, and in fact made some preliminary scouting (see turnthread). We were then drawn into a protracted discussion with E_T, who insisted we delay the turn until we contacted an admin to check GWT's turn and be sure there was absolutely NO way they could have spotted us.

We had no objections to having an admin check into the save but we felt the turn had to be played NOW. In any case, if an admin saw evidence of foul play, we could always call for a replay of the save. E_T's insistence turned to threats, and he made it clear he intended to open the 730 AD turn himself and check to see if GWT could've spotted us that turn. As you know, reloading a past save and making moves different than those we did when we played the turn, is completly illegal and clearly stated as such in the ISDG rules from the very start.

Knowing well this would very much cost him a position on the team, E_T opened the save and scouted, against Consular objections.

So it now boils down to two issues. I am very disappointed with E_T's decision to act on his own breaking an ISDG rule. Because of this, I think his position on this team is severly compromised. However, this leaves the other issue: did GWT in fact cheat? As it is, we cannot go to the admins and say that one of our teammates obtained information illegally.

I truly would have wished E_T should have listened to reason and waited until we did get an admin so that person would've checked the turn, a replay would still have been justified. But now, we unfortunately have a potential case of cheating, coupled with the very real fact that we cannot have a person who cheated on our team.

-MZ


Kloreep will post the log of the chat shortly.

	27-07-2004 07:18									#2
	Suffering from ads?

The important part where E_T replayed the 730 AD save is in bold.

quote: [19:19] [Sharpe] I have just been reading the forum and frankly I am becoming disgusted by the tone that some of our leadership are using and I am sorely tempted to call a COC on some of you [19:19] [Kloreep] Sharpe: On what issue(s)? [19:20] [Sharpe] the "did GWT know whether we were coming" - frankly we all know that this game is already corrupted due to Lucky's tactics, GWT's end of turn manuevers and CGN's constant complaining [19:21] [Sharpe] I imagine that some of us (maybe a lot of us) are getting fed up with this game [19:22] [E_T] what do you want us to do? [19:22] [Sharpe] I think to get the team united again we need an outside party or a person who wants to quit the team to investigate that galley issue [19:23] [Sharpe] since we don't have a moderator in the game, maybe we can get someone in Apolyton not in the game to take a look [19:23] [Nuclear_Winter] sucess in this undertaking could help us too [19:23] * WIA has joined #apolytonisdg [19:23] * ChanServ sets mode: +o WIA [19:23] [E_T] I do agree, although I'm not wanting to do it, as I just got back, I'm willing to be the one to do it [19:23] [Nuclear_Winter] unite the team, I mean [19:23] [Sharpe] true NW [19:24] [Nuclear_Winter] Perhaps Togas? [19:24] [E_T] but then, I also don;t want to do it, unless the Consulship (or baring that, a mandate from the team) was to let me do it [19:24] [Nuclear_Winter] you guys know what? [19:24] [Nuclear_Winter] We can do it , with or without cheats [19:25] [Nuclear_Winter] they wanna cheat? Thatīll just demoralize them [19:25] [E_T] or someone who isn;t on any of the teams, like Ming or Gramphos [19:25] [Aidun] I'm going to sleep [19:25] [Aidun] cya another day [19:25] [Nuclear_Winter] weīve got the best team, weīll win in Godīs grace [19:25] [Nuclear_Winter] cya Aidun [19:26] [Sharpe] it isn't hubris on our part - clearly GWT has clearly demonstrated that they are the best team IMHO [19:26] * Aidun has quit IRC (Quit: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz) [19:26] [E_T] well, the issue is, NW, that if there is definate cheating now, whats to stop it from happening in the future [19:26] [Kloreep] NW: I'm afraid I can't share your opinion [19:26] [Kloreep] We've had a hard time crawling out of the pit we started in [19:26] [Kloreep] It's going to be a hard journey yet [19:26] [Sharpe] but clearly unusual activities and cheating almost seem to be the normality in this game [19:26] [Kloreep] We aren't in the superior position to just laugh off cheating; it could seriously hurt us and lose us the gaem [19:27] [Nuclear_Winter] I know, but we canīt effectively prove it [19:27] [Nuclear_Winter] not right now [19:27] [Kloreep] That said, I don't think GWT has cheated [19:27] [Nuclear_Winter] so we better just not think about it [19:27] [E_T] I for one, don;t condone the cheating, but when I have something that doesn;t seem quite right, I want to know that It's not from possible cheating [19:27] [Nuclear_Winter] Sharpe, how can GWT be the best team if weīre gonna win from them? [19:28] [Nuclear_Winter] and youīre right investigating E_T, I just donīt see much future in these investigations [19:28] [Sharpe] hehe NW - keep up the good spirit [19:28] [E_T] Klor, that very much might be true, but that doesn;t stop them from reacting to "intel" from GCA and if that is tainted, I don;t think that GWT would like to be assosiated with that, either [19:29] [Sharpe] frankly I am just getting fed up with the other teams having shady benefits and we always getting shafted by them [19:30] [Nuclear_Winter] true, we got a hard starting position and all this stuff [19:30] [Sharpe] regarding GCA - frankly I am convinced that when they shifted continents with all of their remaining units - we should have stopped the game and demanded their removal from the game [19:30] [E_T] shoot, I don;t like the fact that our plan isn;t going as well as planned, but if that plan is ruined because someone else DID do something that wasn;t right, then we do have something to work off of, even if it still doesn;t come off [19:31] [E_T] Hey, CGN was silent about it and they admit that that was the wrong thing to do [19:31] [E_T] but that is all long ago [19:31] [E_T] and this issue is now [19:32] [Sharpe] I completely agree E_T - if we do lose I want it to be because the other team earned it - not through dubious and questionable tactics [19:32] [Nuclear_Winter] well, if the moderator is indefinitably away, we should keep this going untill he is back. then we go and ask him to investigate [19:33] [Sharpe] we have been on the losing end on every debate - in that we have suffered losses from every questionable tactic [19:33] [E_T] sure, I would like to win, but I'm also a good loser, IF I Know that they other playere was playing by all of the rules [19:34] [E_T] the thing is, NW, If we do that and Mongoose shows up, 5 or more turn down the road, and he DOES find something, do we just go on from there, go back several turns or what [19:34] [Nuclear_Winter] I dunno [19:34] [E_T] which is why it's important to get this figured out now [19:34] [Nuclear_Winter] Why donīt we cross that bridge when we get there? [19:34] [Sharpe] that won't happen E_T, GWT and GCA would quit on the spot [19:34] [Nuclear_Winter] we should try to find this out [19:34] [Kloreep] If GWT did cheat to find us coming, this game is over as far as I am concerned [19:35] [Nuclear_Winter] but so far, the best we can do is investigate a bit, without compromising a lot, and settle it all when mongoose comes back [19:35] [E_T] well, NW, we are at that particular bridge now and we either go forward, with a possible taint or we stop and have it looked into [19:35] [Nuclear_Winter] I think the bridgeīs a bit before, E_T [19:35] [Nuclear_Winter] I mean, after [19:36] [E_T] not really [19:36] [Sharpe] goodness knows the other teams have halted the game for less (like GCA most recently re the peace issue) [19:36] [Nuclear_Winter] i donīt think we have enough of a solid ground to halt the game now... and I think it wouldnīt be of much use either [19:36] [E_T] hey, I don;t want to see this game end, but after all that we have been through and everything that I've compiled, I would certainly like to be proved wrong [19:37] [Nuclear_Winter] but thatīs just me [19:37] [E_T] we have had things investigated in the past, when Mongoose was around, during the war [19:37] * Kloreep thinks he will volunteer to be an admin the next time a MPDG starts [19:38] [Kloreep] This one could certainly use a better one [19:38] [E_T] as I said, the C3C admin people might be the ones to, atleast temporaily, take over for Mongoose while he's gone [19:38] [Sharpe] I once played a Civ 2 game where I played for hours - then I finally pushed into my opponents core - where I found Mechanized Infantry in place - yet the guy was still 8-10 techs away from getting them - I was enraged for wasting the time for a game that I had little chance of winning [19:40] [E_T] and we have actually wasted a day or more, debating this, when we could have atleast asked them if they would temporarily take over and then look at our issue [19:41] [Nuclear_Winter] I know people, I donīt want us to play being tricked, too [19:41] [Nuclear_Winter] be sure of that [19:41] [E_T] I for one would say, good show, GWT if they had spotted us, via legal means [19:41] [Kloreep] [19:38] [E_T] as I said, the C3C admin people might be the ones to, atleast temporaily, take over for Mongoose while he's gone [19:41] [Kloreep] Isn't FortyJ on the CFC team in this game? [19:41] [Kloreep] I forget who the others are... [19:41] [Kloreep] We might also try Elucidus, since his team is out now [19:42] [E_T] IIRC, they are all former CDG people [19:42] [E_T] from this game [19:43] [E_T] send them the last 5 saves, with our concerns, if they find something, then we get them to ask for the passwords to the other teams, saves and such and investigate further [19:44] [E_T] and if they find things are truely wrong, then they can inquire futher about it, with GWT [19:45] [Nuclear_Winter] [19:45] [Nuclear_Winter] that might just wokr very well [19:45] [E_T] OR they might find that we were legally spotted, which then means that this all was moot [19:46] [E_T] but sitting on our hands then playing the save with this issue being unresolved is not how we need to go about this [19:46] [Nuclear_Winter] should we play this save, but then delay the other svae terribly, just like we did with this one? [19:47] [E_T] I say wait and get an answer back [19:47] [E_T] as it is, we would likely have to ask the other teams to have them accept a temporary admin, until Mongoose gets back [19:48] * Nuclear_Winter slaps the consuls around a bit with an inflatable "lucky" doll [19:48] [E_T] which, they might not want, but I really doubt that [19:52] [Nuclear_Winter] brb [19:54] [E_T] I think I need to reboot, Explorer is doing funky things, like coming up with no navigation bars or them being moved around from what I normally have [19:56] [E_T] yeah, it;s taking forever to close my windows out.... [19:56] [E_T] I'll be rebooting in just a few [19:57] [MasterZen] E_T: [19:57] [E_T] yeah? [19:57] [MasterZen] please indicate me, HOW ON EARTH AN ADMIN WILL CHANGE THE FACT THAT GWT KNOWS WE'RE COMING??? [19:58] [E_T] if they moved units, in responce to illgained info then an admin can tell them not to, really I don't know [19:58] [MasterZen] umm, yes, and their ansar moving our way? how will that change? [19:59] [E_T] if they did cheat, or used info from someone else who did, then in reality, this game is over, for all intents and purposes [19:59] [MasterZen] how about the fact that they can easily argue that that is a VERY LIKELY landing point, which it is,?? [19:59] [MasterZen] my point is: does delaying this game endlessly give us a practical in-game, tangiable benefit? [19:59] [E_T] MZ, that I can;t say, as for one thing, if they did see us legally then fine, they did [19:59] [E_T] and we move on [20:00] [E_T] if not, then we will cross that bridge when we do get to it [20:00] [MasterZen] and if they didn't and yet still know we're coming, how does that change things? [20:01] [E_T] well, if they did things, changed things, because of a cheat, then they could be force to replay, without those moves and we can land and they react at that point [20:01] [E_T] I don';t know [20:02] [Kloreep] Yes, that could be done, MZ [20:02] [Kloreep] However, that will mean going back even further [20:02] [E_T] all I do know, is that there is the distinct possibility of things not being as entirely as they appear to be [20:02] [Kloreep] I don't see why we should delay this turn [20:02] [MasterZen] me neither [20:02] [MasterZen] it's all paranoia about a cheat which we have ZERO evidence of it happening [20:02] * Nuclear_Winter points all to the very enlightening topic of the room [20:03] [MasterZen] and even if it did, it does not change the fact that surprise is gone *Some snippage* [20:07] [Nuclear_Winter] Iīm acting just like GWt will if we claim cheat, BTW [20:07] [Kloreep] If all you were thinking of were Fs and *s, then how come you recognized it should be F*** rather than F****? [20:07] [Nuclear_Winter] "You cheated! We opened your save and saw it!" [20:07] [Kloreep] Yes... [20:07] [Nuclear_Winter] "no we didnīt, you did" [20:07] [Kloreep] Another reason to get a new admin and have THEM check things out [20:07] [Nuclear_Winter] Kloreep, 3 is my lucky number [20:07] [Nuclear_Winter] [20:07] [Sharpe] unlike Lucky who has infinitely lucky numbers of course [20:13] [Kloreep] What do you guys think of moving Zealous 6-6? [20:13] [Kloreep] Then we can see if we actually _could_ land those knights there [20:15] [Sharpe] since GWT has probably seen Zealous already - why not? then we see whether they have an open space down there or more troops (maybe we will even see the leading edge of Ansars for all we know) [20:17] [Kloreep] Heh, my CPU is finally feeling the strain, with Civ, Mozilla, CD Player, and Excel all open at once [20:20] [Sharpe] the internet slowdown due to the latest version of the MyDoom virus probably isn't helping either [20:20] [Kloreep] Heh [20:20] [Kloreep] Well, Apolyton is hopeless enough without any viruses spreading around

	27-07-2004 07:19									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: [20:22] * E_T has joined #ApolytonISDG [20:22] * ChanServ sets mode: +o E_T [20:22] * E_T sets mode: +ns [20:22] [Nuclear_Winter] but tell none of this to E_T! [20:22] [Nuclear_Winter] ah, you here !!! [20:22] [Nuclear_Winter] [20:22] [Kloreep] [20:13] [Kloreep] What do you guys think of moving Zealous 6-6? [20:22] [Kloreep] [20:13] [Kloreep] Then we can see if we actually _could_ land those knights there [20:22] [Kloreep] [20:15] [Sharpe] since GWT has probably seen Zealous already - why not? then we see whether they have an open space down there or more troops (maybe we will even see the leading edge of Ansars for all we know) [20:22] [E_T] Oh, and that would be what? [20:23] [Nuclear_Winter] mine was only a joke [20:23] [Nuclear_Winter] :/ [20:23] [E_T] ah, well, I;ve made a decision [20:24] [MasterZen] 4quickie poll(tm) [20:24] [E_T] It will likely get my banned from any future DG's, but I'm going to go and move those units, in the last turn save and see what there is to see [20:24] [MasterZen] 4do we move AIS Zealous 6-6 to inspect the tiles south of Elfenhaim (the city south of the LZ)? [20:24] [Kloreep] E_T, NO [20:24] [Nuclear_Winter] No Et [20:24] [MasterZen] N-O [20:24] [Sharpe] E_T no, you are too valuable to the team [20:24] [Kloreep] We can get an admin quick so long as the other teams don't object [20:24] [Nuclear_Winter] donīt be a ****o [20:25] [Nuclear_Winter] letīs do things right [20:25] [MasterZen] you are risking cheating yourself just to get a little thorn from your side? [20:25] [E_T] well, tell you what, then get with someone and have this investigated [20:25] [Kloreep] And assuming the C3C admins are willing, but I assume they will be [20:25] [Sharpe] and even if you wanted to scale back your involvement , you deserve to be in the team to see the results of your hard work [20:25] * MasterZen slaps WIA around a bit with a large trout [20:26] [E_T] because no one sofar has had teh guts to even do that [20:26] [MasterZen] I already made it very clear. I will not delay this turn anymore just to satisfy a little paranoia [20:26] [Sharpe] Is FP still on the Poly team? [20:26] [E_T] He lurks, IIRC [20:27] [E_T] but not really involved [20:27] [E_T] MZ, and if this Paranoia is justified? [20:28] [Kloreep] Then it goes beyond this turn [20:28] [Kloreep] Delaying this turn won't make things any easier if paranoia is justified [20:28] [Kloreep] And frankly, E_T, I'm rather pissed at you for turing this in to a threat [20:28] [MasterZen] the thing is, it ISN'T justified because it makes no difference whatsoever, our surprise is gone period. [20:28] [Nuclear_Winter] as for the poll, what colour should we vote in? [20:28] [Sharpe] admittedly that is true - if it turns out that GWT has cheated , we would either demand a replay OR the game is over [20:29] [Kloreep] We should seek a new admin for investigation because it's a good thing to do, not because E_T will throw a tantrum and break the rules if he doesn't get his way [20:29] [E_T] so, if we get someone to temp admin, we take this to them, they find something, how can we justify rolling things back if we do play further [20:29] [Kloreep] E_T: Because we didn't know GWT _had_ cheated until the admin found out [20:29] [Kloreep] And we had no real evidence against them beforehand, so why should we have cried foul backt hen? [20:30] [E_T] that is true, but we can;t justify a replay, IF we do play ahead AND they do find something [20:30] [Kloreep] Why can't we? [20:30] [MasterZen] oh yes we can [20:30] [Kloreep] It's a fundamental part of this game [20:30] [MasterZen] we have FAR more jsutification than delaying this turn [20:30] [Sharpe] My suspicion is that there is NO chance for a replay - GWT/GCA won't stand for it [20:30] [Kloreep] There is nothing about playing ahead while we have no reason to suspect GWT that will injustify a replay request later [20:31] [Nuclear_Winter] OK, lets leave the mumbo jumbo aside and letīs 4Please Play the goddamn save? [20:31] [Kloreep] I agree with NW [20:31] [MasterZen] [20:31] [E_T] well, then, why even waist the time, playing and sending it on, if it might be called BACK AND we might get different info from it if we don;t [20:32] [Nuclear_Winter] oh E_T... [20:32] [E_T] also, technically, we would have to replay everything as we played it now [20:32] [MasterZen] beacsu the MOST LIKELY THING is that there will be NOTHING wrong found so we save time by playing the turn as it is [20:32] [Nuclear_Winter] Your logic rigt now is that "IF we will one day die why live?" logic of suicide ppl [20:33] [Kloreep] [20:32] [E_T] also, technically, we would have to replay everything as we played it now [20:33] [E_T] that;s a poor argumet, MZ [20:33] [Kloreep] Not really [20:33] [Kloreep] I think it will likely have to be highly re-choreographed by an admin if things are fishy [20:33] [E_T] what, if it takes 2 turns for them to get to the bottom of it [20:33] [Kloreep] The only other side is homeland stuff, and there shouldn't be a problem with re-doing that [20:33] [Nuclear_Winter] well, teh admins might just give GWT a 1-tunr movement freeze or something [20:33] [Nuclear_Winter] to compensate for the lost momentum [20:33] [Nuclear_Winter] or whatever [20:33] [Nuclear_Winter] they will think of it when we are there [20:34] [E_T] we might have found other things out, like troop dispositions and such, that can't be recalled back [20:34] [Sharpe] GWT will not agree to a replay - no doubt they will or have figured out how much of a critical point this is [20:34] [Nuclear_Winter] IF there was a cheat, not all can be fixed, but whatever [20:34] [Nuclear_Winter] we see that later [20:34] [Nuclear_Winter] later is the time for such thought [20:34] [Nuclear_Winter] forht later is not now [20:34] [Nuclear_Winter] nor close to now [20:34] [Nuclear_Winter] later is LATEr [20:34] [Nuclear_Winter] afternow [20:34] [Nuclear_Winter] a lot after now [20:35] [Nuclear_Winter] after present happenings [20:35] [E_T] the thing is, at this point in time, we truthfully can NOT justify playing any further, without this being investigated [20:35] [Nuclear_Winter] not now, nor a bit before [20:35] [Sharpe] can we lie in the UN and say we found a bug and we need a temp admin to help fix it ? [20:35] [Kloreep] Sharpe: I think we should just suggest we need a new admin, period, until and unless Mongoose is capable of carrying on again [20:36] [Nuclear_Winter] And play the save while weīre at it [20:36] [E_T] and that, until we secure one, we can;t play on in the knowledge that this game is now unmoderated [20:36] [MasterZen] 4 All I have to say is that I will begin playing this turn in 15 minutes, we can complain about an admin later [20:36] [Sharpe] you play the turn MZ and I will CoC you [20:36] [E_T] well, you do that MZ, while I reload last turn's save [20:37] [Nuclear_Winter] damn you E_T [20:37] [Kloreep] ****. E_T, do you realize how unreasonable you're being? [20:37] [Nuclear_Winter] you calling lots of unneeded flak upon ya [20:37] [Nuclear_Winter] STOP. ACting. LIKE . A LITTLE KID [20:37] [Nuclear_Winter] Be reasonable dude! [20:37] * Nuclear_Winter slaps E_T around a bit with a large trout [20:37] [MasterZen] CoC me then. I'm not saying we won't bring the issue up [20:37] * Nuclear_Winter slaps E_T around a bit with a large trout [20:37] * Nuclear_Winter slaps E_T around a bit with a large trout [20:37] * Nuclear_Winter slaps E_T around a bit with a large trout [20:37] [E_T] hey, sometimes you got to do what is needed, including being rituculed to no end [20:38] [Nuclear_Winter] it is not needed, weīll tend to it after we paly the save!!! [20:38] [Nuclear_Winter] But this is senseless. [20:38] [MasterZen] frankly I think some of you are just so disappointed we didn't find a nice clear landing zone that you're clining on the remote hope that cheating was involved [20:38] [Nuclear_Winter] bah [20:38] [E_T] ans even to the point of being removed from the game, to even give us the knowledge that we goofed or not [20:38] [Nuclear_Winter] MZ, notice me when you start to play the turn, please [20:39] [MasterZen] E_T, do as you please. I think we're all old enough to know how to act responsibly [20:40] * E_T is now loading up the 730 AD save [20:40] [MasterZen] Kloreep, do you know any of the C3C ISDG admins? [20:40] [Kloreep] MZ: No [20:40] [MasterZen] I am not involved in that game [20:40] [MasterZen] I think WIA is [20:40] [Kloreep] I know FortyJ is the main one, but I don't know him personally [20:40] [E_T] IIRC, they have e-mail and PM stuff available at the C3C UN [20:40] [MasterZen] well anyone really is free to contact them about this issue [20:42] [MasterZen] while I get ready to play, one last issue needs discussion: [20:42] [MasterZen] 4move AIS Zealous 6-6? [20:43] [MasterZen] I strongly support it since it can't reach Balken anyway, might as well go snoop [20:43] [Kloreep] I agree [20:43] [MasterZen] as per landing, we'll just have to see if the coast is clear [20:43] [Kloreep] If the tile is blocked, our decision on the knights is made for us [20:43] [MasterZen] yep [20:43] [Nuclear_Winter] I agree [20:43] [MasterZen] so, should I move it right now? [20:43] [Sharpe] yep [20:43] [Nuclear_Winter] [20:43] [E_T] I say no, but do what you wish [20:44] [MasterZen] 4AIS Zealous moves 6-6, UNFORTED Horseman spotted at Elfenhein 2 [20:45] [Nuclear_Winter] screenshotit [20:45] [Kloreep] Hmm [20:45] [MasterZen] still has one more movement left [20:45] [Kloreep] More evidence they're unprepared [20:45] [Nuclear_Winter] screenshotit [20:45] [Kloreep] I say move 9 to see the other tile [20:45] [MasterZen] moving 6 will see more tiles [20:45] [Nuclear_Winter] move the number of the beast [20:45] [Nuclear_Winter] 666 [20:46] [MasterZen] :devil: [20:46] [E_T] 4 all right, I did it, anyone want to know what the results were? [20:46] [MasterZen] E_T: no [20:46] [Nuclear_Winter] niet [20:46] [Sharpe] oh I wondered what that number on Lucky's neck was , thanks NW [20:46] [Nuclear_Winter] hehehe [20:46] [Nuclear_Winter] Mexica, give us a fokin screenshot [20:47] [MasterZen] and I would strongly suggest it if you kept those results for yourself given the consequences of making it public [20:47] [Kloreep] Moving 9 sounds good, MZ [20:47] [Kloreep] err, I mean 6 [20:47] [MasterZen] k [20:47] [MasterZen] :drumroll: [20:47] [Nuclear_Winter] 69? [20:47] [Nuclear_Winter] Kloreep and his freudian slips [20:47] [Nuclear_Winter] [20:47] [MasterZen] 4GOOD NEWS [20:47] [E_T] ---CENSORED--- [20:48] [MasterZen] 31 regular warrior at Elfenhein 3 [20:48] [MasterZen] NO units at Elfenhein S-SE [20:48] [MasterZen] more proof that we REALLY caught them unprepared [20:48] * Nuclear_Winter wants a screenshot!!!:cry: [20:48] [MasterZen] I'm taking it now [20:50] [E_T] ---CENSORED--- [20:51] * Nuclear_Winter changes topic to '#ApolytonISDG - Pray to the 1-winged banana for lucky strikes' [20:51] [E_T] ---CENSORED--- [20:52] [Kloreep] I'm certainly posting in the forum [20:53] [Kloreep] And then we're going to need an admin to sort this mess out

Getting too hard for me to censor it here... so I'll just stop the log.

	27-07-2004 07:27									#4
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

* WhiteBandit smacks his forehead.

	27-07-2004 07:38									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I've posted at the UN stating we need a new admin, and PMed FortyJ, the admin of the C3C ISDG, to see if he'd be willing.

	27-07-2004 07:38									#6
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

wow

	27-07-2004 07:39									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

Edit: Nevermind

Last edited by Lord Nuclear on 27-07-2004 at 07:52

	27-07-2004 07:48									#8
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Don't seam like anythign to worry about. Looking at older saves to simply check one thing.... if that is all that happened. Now, if he started loading old saves to investigate each and every city, that would be something else.

Don't make a big deal over this.

Now, in terms of finding a new admin, I thought we all kinda agreed to that a few days ago when we first discovered their blocking force. Lets go that route if there is an issue, we either insist on a replay, or we quit the game and make one hell of a stink about why we quite. End of issue to me.

	27-07-2004 07:57									#9
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So we can reload saves and make different moves to "scout about" but we just can't reload the contemporary save?

This is a lowpoint in Poly history.

A big thankyou to Kloreep for editing that chat. Unfortunately seemingly all of our leadership is now tainted with illicit information....

This act should be posted to the UN forum immediately....

	27-07-2004 08:05									#10
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To ease any doubts, there were NO details given by E_T. The leadership is just as clueless to the actual info about the 730 AD turn and anyone else here. The only thing that we do know is E_T's conclusion about whatever it is he saw, that's what was edited out, though at this stage it should be pretty easily deduced by anyone.

	27-07-2004 08:12									#11
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Until he opens the save in SP and sees something in GWT's turn, there remains the possibility that GWT would have a wall in place.

Is there no way you guys can post a redacted chat? I think the forum deserves to know whats going on.

	27-07-2004 08:14									#12
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My suggestion to MZ and Kloreep in chat (I arrived shortly after this incident) was to have WIA finish playing the turn.

At this point none of us know what was shared or seen by ET. None of us should know. ET can take his case to the new admin and should not tell us anything about his case. However, the new admin is going to have to reveal to GWT that ET replayed last turn's save, and at that point, we're going to have to deal with some very negative consequences. GWT is going to ask that ET be excluded from the team. They may even inquire about our moves this turn and accuse us of cheating.

I dunno, but clearly nothing good could have come from this, and even if there is some sort of proof that GWT cheated (which I find highly unlikely) what good would come from that? They can't replay the past turn and not know that we're coming. Trying to force them to is utterly impossible.

We can't accuse teams of cheating every time things don't go our way and we definately cannot start tampering with old saves to find things out. That's clearly forbidden. ET knew that. I'm frustrated that he chose to do this anyway.

--Togas

	27-07-2004 08:17									#13
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To be honest, I really don't see why we can't reveal the exact chat log, like I said no details of what E_T saw were given so I don't think we'd be receiving illegal information ourselves.

Plus, the conclusions of what E_T saw are all too obvious now anyway.

	27-07-2004 09:01									#14
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Klo booted me from the room at some point in the last few hours whilst I was doing Ellipsometry experiments. Thus although the chat is logged on my computer, I have not seen it.

Can I read the censored log that Klo has posted? Am I now the only Consul who is able to play? WTF is happening?!

	27-07-2004 09:55									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep I've posted at the UN stating we need a new admin, and PMed FortyJ, the admin of the C3C ISDG, to see if he'd be willing.

Playing the save or not .... this is the wisest post I have seen in the last 10 threads.

Post in the UN, that we need someone to check a save for us. That we would appreciate some time to hash out some inconsistencies. That we need someone to review some past saves.

At least let the other teams know, that we have some members requesting a review, and although it may not have full team support, there are enough questions to warrant a delay.

Keep the other teams informed without going into too much detail.

My opinion, is that we play the save, and persue our concerns over the next few days. It should not take too long to find a moderator (which everyone wants).

	27-07-2004 10:13									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Hot_Enamel Playing the save or not .... this is the wisest post I have seen in the last 10 threads. Post in the UN, that we need someone to check a save for us. That we would appreciate some time to hash out some inconsistencies. That we need someone to review some past saves. At least let the other teams know, that we have some members requesting a review, and although it may not have full team support, there are enough questions to warrant a delay. Keep the other teams informed without going into too much detail. My opinion, is that we play the save, and persue our concerns over the next few days. It should not take too long to find a moderator (which everyone wants).

	27-07-2004 16:47									#17
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**** me.

Just because something doesn't go our way, the other side is cheating? I understand that Lucky's "luck" has jaded us, but COME ON!

I refuse to believe that GWT cheated. They're better than that. A worthy opponent, even. One that was smart enough to plan for the worst.

-Arrian

	27-07-2004 18:38									#18
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

E_T

As you know I have been one of your firmest supporters over the past few months.

BUT this time, I cant do it. Anything that could be construed as cheating whether or not we have an admin or not was not a good idea. This game is already tainted by potential cheating (That we will probably never be able to prove) and exploits. The delays and the replays have been more than I care to see. Its to the point that in the future, Im seriously considering NOT getting into inter-site Demo Games. In a lot of ways I have a lot more fun and get a lot more relaxation from being a Monkey in PtWDGII.

Unfortunately how other teams view this if they ever get wind of it, will only further taint this game, and do serious harm to our reputation.

Please please, now that you have done this keep the results to your self. I dont want to know unless a game admin tells me something.

BTW Kloreep sending a PM and email to FortyJ was a smart move. I dont know him well but what I do know of him from the C3C ISDG UN leads me to believe he is a very efficient individual. I hope and I pray he accepts at least temporary adminship of this demo game.

And I for one do not want to see the whole log. If MWIA needs one as a consul send it to him. I can probably guess what happened from whats posted but Im not even going to speculate.................

	27-07-2004 18:58									#19
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Is there any fun in this game anymore guys?

I received a PM and an Email about this game in the last few weeks and have mildly been watching again.

I've seen nothing but internal bickering, accusations, and insinuations.

Wow. Is it that important? Really?

	27-07-2004 19:19									#20
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quote: Originally posted by conmcb25 E_T As you know I have been one of your firmest supporters over the past few months. BUT this time, I cant do it. Anything that could be construed as cheating whether or not we have an admin or not was not a good idea. This game is already tainted by potential cheating (That we will probably never be able to prove) and exploits. The delays and the replays have been more than I care to see. Its to the point that in the future, Im seriously considering NOT getting into inter-site Demo Games. In a lot of ways I have a lot more fun and get a lot more relaxation from being a Monkey in PtWDGII. Unfortunately how other teams view this if they ever get wind of it, will only further taint this game, and do serious harm to our reputation. Please please, now that you have done this keep the results to your self. I dont want to know unless a game admin tells me something.

I guess I could just write +1 to this post.

E_T... no matter what, handling the 730AD save in a way that was directly contradicting orders of our consuls (TWO of them, for that matter) is something I cannot condone. Whatever you (or me) think regarding the level of "cheating" involved in checking LZ 4, it is irrelevant. Anything that serious must be endorsed at least by the leadership, if not by a team vote.

Remember - it's the Consuls and ONLY them who are supposed to handle the save. Any save. Every save.

	27-07-2004 20:17									#21
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This game is as good as finished. If every team will cry faul for every single thing they don't like or find suspicious, we will never finish it. Imagine if all teams will open old saves to prove they are right (or not)!

We've just opened Pandorra's box and it will kill the game.

Can't we just accept that other teams have skilled civ players as well and not everyone is a cheater? Can we accept that we can lose this game and not because the others cheated?

I understand that some players are emotionally deeply involved in this game, especially E_T, but that doesn't justify of what this game has become.

	27-07-2004 20:39									#22
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I agree with eveyone here that it is sad that this happened.

Once we go ignoring consul orders, the team is dead and anarchy is there.

The Consuls have to make a judgement on what to do. I could imagine that the consus prefer to not pass this to the admin and apply their own judgement on E_T. I would not let the case escalate more than is nessecary, but the Consuls have the final word in this.

Perhaps it is in the light of the affairs of the past few days worth to look at the prediction I made in my crazy mood known by some as The Oracle of Apolloton:

quote: At the first two turns Apolyton will be mediocre in the war. It will have losses. Friends at home will mourn for the fallen ones. But at the third turn the sun will rise and the reward will be beyond expectations. The fouth turn there is the alliance. In the end Apolyton will have a small vitory. The theme of the war is wonderful: Staves X for the ones interested: The place the querent is moving to will suffer from his 10 wands. The advise of the Oracle is to have stability within the nation and to avoid falling to folly.

I have made the parts that are now particularly relevant bold. The first part could point on E_T's leaving of the team, it was temporary voluntary and could now become permanent and obligatory.

The message of the last part is obvious. I did not realize that when I wrote this nearly four weeks ago, it would become reality. Please take the advise of then serious.

Of course this prediction has no value at all, not for me, neither for you, afterall, you can only know if a prediction was accurate when the present proves it. We will have to wait a few more turns to determine the worth, but the similarities are already now at least remarkable.
Do with this what you want.

Aidun

	27-07-2004 21:23									#23
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Come on, if we're going to whine about what cost us this game, let's not focus on cheating, and instead focus on the fact that the GWT got to start on the "Continent of Bountiful Inept Teams" while we started in the "Jungle of Desolate Suckitude."

	27-07-2004 21:23									#24
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Oh, and Lucky. Don't forget Lucky

	27-07-2004 22:33									#25
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May I suggest a solution.

We do not have a game admin - and even if we did have one - asking for an investigation, as has been discussed, would not prove anything conclusively. Nor would it help our image - basically suggesting GWT was using an exploit.

Making this issue public will give ammunition to the Lucky's of the world. OTOH, the pledge and spirit and intent of the rules would suggets that we should make it public. I need to go back and read that section.

The other solution I see is that I contact my counterpart in GWT (Borc or Darekill), explain what has gone down, that we are not using the information that was obtained, and that in fact - most of the team does not have that info, see if they are OK with it, shake hands, and move on.

Any thoughts?

Regarding E_T .... I'm not sure what to do - to be honest.

	27-07-2004 23:12									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Beta PTW Intersite Democracy Game Pledge As the leader and representative of my team, I give you, the other leaders and team members in the game, the following promise: I, and my team, hereby promise that we will fully abide by the rules and the spirit of the rules in this multi-team democracy game. We will not play ahead or abuse the game save in any manner. We will not use the game save in any way to view another team's position. We will not attempt to enter or view any private forums. We will not fabricate e-mails or other forms of messaging or falsify our identities in any fashion. We agree not to communicate with another team in any meaningful way regarding the game until that team is actually contacted in the game. Minimaps, or other similar re-creations providing a teams location in the world, will not be traded until maps can actually be traded in the game. We will not engage in any double identity or double log-in activity, nor will we condone it. If we become of aware of such activity, it will be made public to all teams immediately. Any members engaging in such activity will be banned from ALL teams involved in the game. Any information revealed by a double identity player will be made known to the other team involved, and the neutral administrator, and appropriate compensation, as either agreed by the teams, or if agreement is not possible, as determined by the neutral administrator, will be provided. I agree to create and maintain a current members list in a public area of my home forum. We will do our best to quickly complete our turns and make the save available for the next team prior to the deadline. This deadline is 24 hours per team per turn. The 24 hour rule notwithstanding, we acknowledge that a time counter will be used to time play, and all reasonable efforts will be made to play the turn within the constraints of the time counter, which provides 4 hours per turn per team, in aggregate fashion. Each team will start with a 'bank' of 100 hours. In the case of game process issues and disputes, we agree to acknowledge and abide by the ruling of the neutral adminstrator. The neutral administrator for this game will be mongoose of 1BigCommunity or his designate, who will not be, and will not have been, a member of a team in the game. Furthermore, we will expell anyone from our team who willingly breaks these rules. We wish you all the best of luck and good civin'! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Re: PTW Intersite Democracy Game Pledge Monday, February 17, 2003 - 10:02:21 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I BetaHound, representative for Apolyton, agree to this pledge. Good luck to all. Game on!

This is the pledge we took as a team. The relevant part is:

quote: We will not play ahead or abuse the game save in any manner. We will not use the game save in any way to view another team's position.

And then there is this:

quote: Furthermore, we will expell anyone from our team who willingly breaks these rules.

There was also this follow-up piece for clarification:

quote: Originally posted by Beta One thing I want to highlight is the clause stating that 'we will not play ahead'. Let me be clear. No one on this team, or any team, should be playing the save ahead of the assigned member playing the official turn for our team. In our case, one of the consuls, a minister, or a designate. If perchance, you are reviewing the save and 'accidentally' (and given what I have just stated, it would have to be accidental) revealed something that would not be known without simply looking at the save (a move or an attack for example), then you are required to keep that information to yourself, and not share it with anyone on the team, until the information becomes known to the team via a legitimate move. You should also not participate in any turn chats or discussion threads regarding moves or strategies until that time either.

In some respects, my clarification contradicts the above - in that it simply asks that the person with the knowledge be quiet for a bit. And - it was clear that reviewing the previous save was not accidental.

Anyways - thought we should revisit these principles given recent events.

And, I still think the private chat with GWT is the way to go.

	27-07-2004 23:14									#27
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Which means to abide by the UN rules, we need to expel E_T from the team.

	27-07-2004 23:20									#28
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One reason I want an admin is so we can have him observe what we are doing. We can share with him the full details of our fleet movements so that he can verify we are not gaining an unfair advantage, which I don't believe we should be even if MZ or I have to play the turn.

Once the issue of E_T's replay has been resolved, I would then like to turn over some of our saves to him and have him investigate possible GWT cheating so that we can put that issue to rest once and for all; but that's not the urgent issue right now IMO.

Regarding E_T... E_T, you have re-played a save to gain information illegally. Regardless of your motives or whether you gained any useful information, you should not have done that. I'm sorry, but I think all we can do at this point is remove your access pending the final decision of the admin and/or other teams.

	27-07-2004 23:22									#29
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BTW, unless anyone has an objection, I will post a brief description of the incident at the UN - that E_T replayed a part of a save against the rules of the game.

	27-07-2004 23:29									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep BTW, unless anyone has an objection, I will post a brief description of the incident at the UN - that E_T replayed a part of a save against the rules of the game.

So I guess you do not like my suggestion of a private chat with GWT - which keeps the issue between the two teams affected, and keeps the matter from blowing out of all proportions. On the other hand - there is much to be said for being upfront and honest about this.

May I suggest both actions are in order:

1. The public posting.
2. And the chat with GWT to give them assurances that this is not merely the tip of an iceberg.