29-07-2004 05:31									#61
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I think H_E and Rush made a good point, beside that it's fine, although I don't see any need to make this public, we can solve it as team too by simply banning E_T, with ET's own permission, voluntarily.

Aidun

	29-07-2004 05:59									#62
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Posted at the UN with a few more revisions.

quote: Okay, it's high time we got to the disclosure part. A member of our team was concerned about possible inconsistencies on GWT's part. He was not satisfied with the investigation, or rather current lack thereof, and decided to take matters in to his own hands by opening our 730 AD save and taking a different move with a unit than had actually been played out. (This member's future status needs to be discussed with GWT and whoever becomes admin.) Note that he did not share specific information about what he saw. Nevertheless, this is why an immediate admin replacement would be helpful; we cannot disclose all of our information to GWT to reassure them this should not effect the game, but we can to an admin, who can then tell GWT whether or not they believe the game can proceed unhindered.

	29-07-2004 06:09									#63
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Nicely worded, Kloreep.

	29-07-2004 07:02									#64
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Yup.

	29-07-2004 12:02									#65
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Yep, the posted version is very good.

	29-07-2004 17:23									#66
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How shall we interpret bongo's response? I assume the seeming "inconsistencies" are the holes in the wall, but how that could have to do with two turns ago mystifies me (unless it's then just a big coincidence the units got out when they did...)

	29-07-2004 17:45									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Posted at the UN with a few more revisions.

F U C K

If there was any doubt about us being near enough with a fleet it is now cleared away. By moving a unit in order to investigate the possibility of GWT cheating, it is necessary we have units close enough for this to make a difference. The cat, if it was anywhere near the bag, has run off completely now.

I don't know what information we could withhold from GWT now anyway, except the exact numbers and positions of our fleet. It is clear we have one.

* MrWhereItsAt wonders if he actually is a Consul, or just a space-filler

	29-07-2004 20:42									#68
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hmm, a human mistake? "Our zugführer didn't read the threads he were supposed to, resulting in some units not moving where they should until next turn"

What does that mean? That they wanted to build the seawall earlier but due to a mistake they didn't do it and now it's suspicious that they moved them exactly in time to halt our invasion??
Or maybe because of an omission (not moving the units) they used then the move-to exploit?

	29-07-2004 21:02									#69
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I'm very curious as well as to the meaning of Bongo's comments. I'd say it has to do with GWT being able to get two movements out of one turn. Just like when CGN complained....

For those not in the know, here's what was posted by Bongo:

quote: I *think* I have an idea of what this is all about. During our turn 720ad, we *had* a major screw-up. Our zugführer didn't read the threads he were supposed to, resulting in some units not moving where they should until next turn. To someone looking at the game from above(like the person who did the reload) it would have looked very strange indeed. The 'inconsistencies' were simply a result of a human making a mistake.

	29-07-2004 23:13									#70
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Sheesh... so perhaps they really did "cheat" after all. This is getting ridiculous... one mistake after another. And if they did accidentally use an exploit that allows them to thwart our invasion, what the hell do we do then? Just write it off? Somebody get me a stiff drink...

	29-07-2004 23:43									#71
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... sheesh. I don't even now what to say now.

Have we had any luck in getting an admin? This thing definately needs someone to take a long, hard look at it.

--Togas

	30-07-2004 00:38									#72
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I just don't have a clue as to what Bongo means. I think we should try to avoid jumping to conclusions, and have a chat with GWT and press them for the type of disclosure we provided.

Both teams disclosing what happened to an admin would be better yet, but have we had any progress on that front?

-Arrian

	30-07-2004 00:46									#73
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FortyJ said he would do it BUT he hd some involvement with CFC backs many months ago.

All the teams that had posted responding to it agreed to let him do it but of course our buddy Lucky said as long as he doesn't make any "rulings".

Im not sure what the hell good an Administrator is without being able to give rulings but then Im quite sure Im no where near as smart as Lucky is.

Check the Un thread, I have not done so in days.

My recommendation is to just hold a team vote. Im pretty sure we would get three yes's, us CFC and GWT.

At that point we can just say to ourselves "screw Lucky"

Who if anyone is our official UN rep right now?

If no one then Togas do you want me to handle this or you? Assuming the team consensus is to go ahead and do it.

	30-07-2004 01:41									#74
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An admin that can't rule is not an admin.

	30-07-2004 01:53									#75
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quote: I *think* I have an idea of what this is all about. During our turn 720ad, we *had* a major screw-up. Our zugführer didn't read the threads he were supposed to, resulting in some units not moving where they should until next turn. To someone looking at the game from above(like the person who did the reload) it would have looked very strange indeed. The 'inconsistencies' were simply a result of a human making a mistake.

This is highly suspicious

Either they saw us coming ingame or they didn't.

If they did see us coming then there's no way a move to block in response could "look very strange indeed".

If they didn't see us coming in-game then how does he know what the incosistency is? Or what the situation is about. (assuming he does actually know correctly) And how does he know that things would look "strange"?
The mention of 720 is to imply that the reason they may have made a certain move to counter a landing this last turn rather than any other is less to coincidence with us being able to land and more because of internal issues. But again why would he state this if they didn't know we were there? And there on this particular turn?

To me it looks like GWT didn't see us coming. If so I think GWT will play it as follows, they didn't know we were there, but with what Trip said and possibly spotting the trade possibility they decided to block tiles and counter a possible invasion. They meant to do it in 720 but ended up doing it in 730 instead. Then when we started to hold the save they inteam looked at what could be the problem and decuded that there was possibly an invasion underway and that their move to block tiles this turn could be seen as suspicious.

It would be hard to argue against this and this is certainly plausable.

(Here comes a Lawyer bit, where is Togas anyway)
However in order for this to be the case they would have to have made other moves to block tiles in other places (or already be doing so elsewhere). While also not moving a **** load of Ansars over to the west coast, unless that is they didn't have that many over there, inwhich case it could be seen to be just redistributing defences.
Preparing for an invasion, I can buy into but preparing for an invasion in only one area certainly not

Also suspicous would be if the only tiles being blocked were ones in and around the area where we could land rather than all the way up and down the peninsula.
That and the use of the word horseman by Bongo in the chat, why not spearman?

Important questions would be,
1. First foremost and most importantly. Did they see us coming?
And if they didn't.
2. How long has there been units blocking the west coast?
3. Are there similar blockings elsewhere/movements to block?
4. Were any serious millitary movements made westward?

Overall I still don't think there was any foul play involved. While what has been said by GWT is suspicous, it is possilbe that with the alarm bells ringing they could have deduced what the inconsistency is.
There may very well be a scenario where they have moved large numbers of horsemen to block various tiles all over their empire, a scenario which would IMO explain away pretty much everything other than the question as to why Bongo has a cow avatar.

Disclaimer - the again the above could all be completely wrong, assumptions on assumptions and possibilities is never that sound.

	30-07-2004 02:31									#76
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This is unexpected, and VERY odd. It points to an exploit of some kind (unintentional, perhaps). If it was a simple mistake that gained them no illegal foreknowledge then I imagine they would have had no issue with it (at least no issue they would not deal with internally).

And the answer to your avatar, OPD, is still no.

	30-07-2004 03:15									#77
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt And the answer to your avatar, OPD, is still no.

I think you mean his signature.

	30-07-2004 03:34									#78
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From their further replies, it sounds to me like they made a mistake with where they moved their units on one turn.

	30-07-2004 03:54									#79
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That's what I assumed.

	30-07-2004 05:22									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Bongo Has it occured to you that a mediator/investigator would also have the power to recommend a ruling? All very simple, when he is done investigating he will give an answer. If the answer is 'nothing wrong here' then we just move on with the game. If his answer is 'this needs a ruling', then we would have to get an admin.

[nitpick]

By definition mediators do not make rulings.*

[/nitpick]


/s
your friendly neighborhood mediator.**





*as always, there are some limited exceptions...

**certified to mediate, but never put to practice

	06-08-2004 06:34									#81
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The latest from FortyJ.

quote: Update: I have taken a good look at several of the saves from various teams. I've also forwarded some screenshots to Elucidus for him to review. Once we have a consensus of opinion, I will notify the parties involved of my findings and post a bland, lifeless summary of them here in this thread.

	06-08-2004 06:36									#82
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A bland lifeless summary, huh?

This guy is OK in my book



I hope Luc is around and able to look at the screenies. This game is suffering from a lack of interest already. This delay is NOT helping.

This forum has been DEAD.

	06-08-2004 07:05									#83
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Very dead. Of course, this is PTW, so most of the lack of interest is because of that.

	06-08-2004 07:07									#84
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quote: Originally posted by GodKing Very dead. Of course, this is PTW, so most of the lack of interest is because of that.

I disagree with that. The fun in the game has to do more with it's partiipants. The differences bewteen PTWand C3C is not so great as that someone can no longer have fun with PTW. I agree that C3C is better, but not that much better.

	06-08-2004 07:30									#85
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I think the continueing soap operas probably have more of an effect than the PtW angle.

And probably the external soap operas more so than the internal. (Even though the internal ones are pretty dam intense at times )

	06-08-2004 07:55									#86
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It is just the headach of the separate games, keeping all the little details streight, that kill me. That is why I even hate the same expansion, but with different patches. God, was it 1.17 for vanilla civ3 that gave out armies as a goodie hut bonus. Remembering things like that drives me nuts.

	06-08-2004 08:00									#87
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Armies as a goody hut bonus? I don't remember that.

	06-08-2004 08:04									#88
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It did happen in one old Civ3 vanilla patch. I think GK has the correct one; 1.17 was a screwy patch. (Then again, so were all patches before 1.21, IMO )

	06-08-2004 08:10									#89
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I dont even remeber that one!

I thought GodKing was just breathing the air in Detroit WAAAAAAAYYYY to much

	06-08-2004 08:10									#90
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I didn't play as much then as I do now.