31-07-2004 15:14									#31
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...so what happened to the rest of that leftish, larger democracy?

Not continuing with what obviously worked seems pretty incompetent to me.

	31-07-2004 16:07									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman The Indian state of Kerala is a communist success story. Their economy isn't so hot...

No, an economy where 60 % or so of the GDP is made up of remittances from residence abroad is hardly 'hot'... Having said that, it's more to the success of a state than its economy.

I would not think that remittances are a good resource for communist world revolution.

	31-07-2004 17:30									#33
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quote: ...so what happened to the rest of that leftish, larger democracy? Not continuing with what obviously worked seems pretty incompetent to me.

It's only obviously worked if your care about everyone, rather than just your caste/religion/ethnicity, or if you don't value economic results above everything else.

Kerala was historically fortunate as well. Traditions of tolerance and open-mindedness keep the tensions that undermine the rest of India under control. It also got lucky with some benevolent monarchs.

It's no paradise, but it's a lot better than the rest of India and the developing world.

quote: No, an economy where 60 % or so of the GDP is made up of remittances from residence abroad is hardly 'hot'... Having said that, it's more to the success of a state than its economy.

It's never 60%. This article says that it's 22%.

newkerala.com

Still, they are important. But isn't that the case for the rest of India, with the vast numbers of underutilised graduates they produce?

	31-07-2004 17:31									#34
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Don't dicount the benevolent aliens, Kropotkin!

	31-07-2004 19:56									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman It's only obviously worked if your care about everyone, rather than just your caste/religion/ethnicity, or if you don't value economic results above everything else.

	31-07-2004 21:00									#36
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Anyway, it's not about wealth. It's about the inherenet instability of capitalism. This economic system hasn't been able to go an entire decade without tripping, stumbling, or collapsing. When it does, it isn't the rulers of society who suffer, it's those on the low end of the totem pole. It's the workers who lose their jobs, homes, families, etc.

I'll grant you that one. Unfortunately, the "stability" of communism is a steady decline concealed by artificial pricing and resource allocations.

quote: In addition, capitalists distort the political process. Look at the inordinate power of a Richard Mellon-Scaife, who so hobbled the Clinton presidency that the President was unable to do his job, which may have resulted in 9/11. Two hundred FBI agents were busing investigating the Clintons because of this man's hatred, instead of looking into people learning to fly planes but not learning how to land them. That's just one extreme example.

Whereas, in communism, instead of a Mellon-Scaife with his agenda, you get a party apparachik with his. The efficiency and benevolence of the NKVD isn't exactly a shining example, and communist theorists have always concerned themselves so much about "counterrevolutionary" activities and information control that it's hard to conceive of any communist system that doesn't rely on such agencies for control.

"Trust is good. Control is better." - Feliks Dzherzhinski.

The other side of the capitalist system is just as there's room for the Mellon-Scaife's and Fred Phelps' of the world, there's also room for the Moveon's, and alternet's of the world.

	31-07-2004 21:03									#37
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nobody is preventing a worker from buying stocks in his company, thus becoming an owner of capital, and of the means of production.

	31-07-2004 21:06									#38
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MtG,

The 'other side of capitalism' as you put it is insignificant. It doesn't result in anything. The capitalists still 'distort' (and I would say control) the political process.

	31-07-2004 21:45									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar Berz says that Communism lasted 70 years before dying out, and then you say "Lies! This is false! Communism died almost immediately!" You have a lot to learn about making effective arguments.

That's probably the best argument I've ever seen against the "Soviet Union was never communist" argument.

political-belief-twin

	31-07-2004 21:52									#40
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Whoever has all the beanie babies wins, and capitalism is winning in this regard. I however, plan to load a tank full of beanie babies and drive in the street.

	31-07-2004 21:56									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia nobody is preventing a worker from buying stocks in his company, thus becoming an owner of capital, and of the means of production.

Generally what prevents a worker from buyng stocks in his company is that if he is like most Americans, he lives paycheck to paycheck, and can't spare any money for such things.

Even for those who can afford stock (generally, in the form of a pension plan), it is very rarely voting stock. So they might have 0.0000001% of the capital in a company, but they have even less of a say in its governence.

	01-08-2004 08:41									#42
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For the love of all that is good and holy kill this thread!

	01-08-2004 11:58									#43
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quote: The difference, however, is that capitalism does not require that the whole world fall under a singular capitalistic umbrella, and so, it can afford to have lots of flavors.

WTO, cough, cough...

	01-08-2004 12:16									#44
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And the arguments about people never putting up with a future communist society make about as much sense as claiming you could seamlessly transform our contemporaries into properly functioning members of a feudal society.

	01-08-2004 14:38									#45
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quote: communism cant exist anymore. marx can no longer say that the workers of today have no access to the wealth. stock options allow the working class to own the means of production - no need for revolution.

Stock options don't really happen every time. They're not part of the minimum wage, for example, nor are they really common for every worker.

quote: he efficiency and benevolence of the NKVD isn't exactly a shining example, and communist theorists have always concerned themselves so much about "counterrevolutionary" activities and information control that it's hard to conceive of any communist system that doesn't rely on such agencies for control.

I don't think such agencies and theories are really inherent to communism. To a control-emphasis political system, yes.

One must totally destroy the state engine during revolution, rather than try to salvage it, and get its poison.

quote: nobody is preventing a worker from buying stocks in his company, thus becoming an owner of capital, and of the means of production.

Poverty can prevent this.

	01-08-2004 16:11									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman It's never 60%. This article says that it's 22%. newkerala.com Still, they are important. But isn't that the case for the rest of India, with the vast numbers of underutilised graduates they produce?

I found the figure of 60 % and went with it, even if it seemed a tad to much.

Still, it seems that the remittances from those 1.83 million makes up the backbone of the economy, as it's by far the largest single source of income for it.

	01-08-2004 16:34									#47
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quote: Berz says that Communism lasted 70 years before dying out, and then you say "Lies! This is false! Communism died almost immediately!" You have a lot to learn about making effective arguments.

	03-08-2004 03:59									#48
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To reply to something Monolith said in another thread:

Harming individuals who think outside the box harms the group. It's is not good communism to do so, and is the easiest proof that this world has yet to see a true communist society.

Hey Monolith!

So...if harming free thinkers (those who think outside the box) is bad for communism, then I hope you'll agree that it's not too much of a stretch to say that nurturing them would be GOOD for communism, yes?

(in fact, I would go so far as to say that this approach would be good for ANY society, regardless of its politics or structure).

And as you say, given that free thinkers have generally been hunted down as executed as being "disruptive elements" in previous Big Red Renditions, this is at least one of the factors for its eventual demise.

Now, one of the best and most effective ways to nurture free thinking is to provide tangible incentives to do so, and I"m not talking about extending invites to party dinners or little plaques to hang stylishly on a wall somewhere. Those are fun, but they don't really get the job done, incentive-wise.

There's an economic system in place in the world today that does that very thing.

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 04:08									#49
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You mean we had to read that whole thing to find out that you don't agree or disagree with his opinion?

	03-08-2004 04:25									#50
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Vel -

"Now, one of the best and most effective ways to nurture free thinking is to provide tangible incentives to do so, and I"m not talking about extending invites to party dinners or little plaques to hang stylishly on a wall somewhere. Those are fun, but they don't really get the job done, incentive-wise.

There's an economic system in place in the world today that does that very thing."

What you're talking about is economic free-thinking - you seem to be stating that having a freemarket allows people to innovate in the market place. However, the free market does nothing to nourish free-thinking in other respects. To nourish free thinking in political, philisophical, cultural and other areas a society must create a system of education and funding that helps people without cash gain an education and spend lots of time studying.

There's nothing inherent in a communist/socialist society that says that that sort of an educational system cannot be built.

If you want to talk about incentive, here's the incentive: tell the child that if he works hard, studies hard, and takes his responsibilities seriously, the government will sponsor him or her for further education. That's real incentive, and there's nothing free-market about it. It's just good civilization.

	03-08-2004 04:26									#51
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Mono

	03-08-2004 04:50									#52
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Capitalism better rewards doers and winner than communism, which better rewards slackers and losers. Regarless of the underlying theory, guess which one will do much better at attracting the skill adhearents to make it work.

	03-08-2004 04:53									#53
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 There's nothing inherent in a communist/socialist society that says that that sort of an educational system cannot be built. If you want to talk about incentive, here's the incentive: tell the child that if he works hard, studies hard, and takes his responsibilities seriously, the government will sponsor him or her for further education. That's real incentive, and there's nothing free-market about it. It's just good civilization.

Wrong, the centralization of power inherent to the to a centalized command economy will mean that such benefits only go to the families and cronies of thoses that hold the power.

	03-08-2004 05:25									#54
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quote: Generally what prevents a worker from buyng stocks in his company is that if he is like most Americans, he lives paycheck to paycheck, and can't spare any money for such things. Even for those who can afford stock (generally, in the form of a pension plan), it is very rarely voting stock. So they might have 0.0000001% of the capital in a company, but they have even less of a say in its governence.

ah, but many americans have the option of being paid in stock options, espcially those who work in industry etc. and yeah, maybe its not voting stock, but he still owns the means of production.

	03-08-2004 05:36									#55
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Monolith - I don't dispute what you're saying. Yes, it is (theoretically) possible to structure incentive as you say, but why?

Why reward innovation with a relatively inflexible benefit?

Why not instead reward that innovation with something vastly more flexible (dollars) and let the innovator decide what to do with his reward?

Maybe he'll choose to further his own education.

Maybe he'll choose to buy a big house in the country.

Nothing wrong with that.

What mystifies me is why you're so afraid to let individuals BE individuals.

We don't need...have never needed some monolithic state organization to hold our hands.

We never will.

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 07:32									#56
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quote: We don't need...have never needed some monolithic state organization to hold our hands.

That's exactly what we've always needed since we lived in small bands of savages.

	03-08-2004 07:56									#57
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That, then, Agathon, is where we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I'm tellin' you...*I* don't need, appreciate, or want a big, monolithic state organization looking over my shoulder, telling me what to say, how to live, WHERE to live, and how to think.

And I am not alone. (not by a longshot)

If you're comfortable in that environment, more power to you. Glad for you. See you in the bread line and all that.

But IF you try to push your kinder, gentler monolithic state brotherhood on me and others like me, we will resist.

I promise.



-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 08:01									#58
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Vel! Stop it!

	03-08-2004 08:08									#59
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Sorry Walker...just couldn't help myself.

It mystifies me how people can WANT to live in a highly centralized controlled environment.

What is it??? I'd really like to know.

Just for the convenience of not having to worry about thinking for oneself? (intellectual laziness, don't bother to think, we'll take care of that for you...the Party bosses will tell you what the 'acceptable thoughts' are)

For the pseudo-luxury of living off the effort of others? (cos let's face it, if I'm getting the same reward for sitting on my arse as I do for working a fourteen hour day, three guesses which one I'm picking!)

Or something else entire?

Cos from what we've seen so far, Utopia, it ain't.

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 08:15									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx That, then, Agathon, is where we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I'm tellin' you...*I* don't need, appreciate, or want a big, monolithic state organization looking over my shoulder, telling me what to say, how to live, WHERE to live, and how to think. And I am not alone. (not by a longshot) If you're comfortable in that environment, more power to you. Glad for you. See you in the bread line and all that. But IF you try to push your kinder, gentler monolithic state brotherhood on me and others like me, we will resist. I promise. -=Vel=-

Yes you do, you just can't see the wood for the trees.

Every large community of human beings has always needed the state. Capitalism needs it just as badly as any other form of human organization save small tribal villages. You show me any large human community that hasn't had some kind of state apparatus.

A vast state apparatus is required in Capitalism to enforce contracts, keep track of who owns what, and who owes what to whom, as well as to regulate so as to avoid collective action problems such as pollution.

Them's just the facts. If you want to dream different, go ahead - it's just a dream. Of course people get a lot of mileage out of feeling victimized by the goverment, but the alternative is worse.