03-08-2004 20:39									#121
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quote: I do believe we're rapidly approaching a point where we won't even understand our own creations anymore.

I don't think so, esp. since we'll control every step of the creation.

	03-08-2004 20:42									#122
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Not when we build machines capable of designing new machines.

	03-08-2004 21:16									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Yes yes! All our American companies are doing SO much business in the green zones in Iraq! An excellent point! -=Vel=-

The goal of the invasion and occupation of Iraq is to protect assets and creat an environment to do more business. That is what causes war.

	03-08-2004 21:20									#124
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Not when we build machines capable of designing new machines.

This only occurs in the case of CPU's and other computer chips, AFAIK, and we still understand every step of the process. And there's a very limited amount that a CPU can actually do.

	03-08-2004 21:20									#125
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It doesn't matter whether we have self aware machines or not. The fact that all indicators point to us being able to create intelligent machines that are cheaper and more efficient than human workers is. It is some way off, but there does not seem to be any reason why it shouldn't happen.

People who deny this are like people who, when seeing Goddard's experiments in rocketry, denied that human beings would go to the moon.

	03-08-2004 21:20									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker That's the point, isn't it? If it's all nice and peaceful, a lot easier to employ people/sell your stuff.

Capitalism is never peacefull. There are only periods where one nation is hegemonic and the working class has very little power. That's where the hegemonic nation and the ruling class enjoy the best environment for exploitation, but it's certainly not peace.

	03-08-2004 21:22									#127
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...

There's no war going on, is there?

Countries aren't sending armies against each other, are they?

I'd call that peace.

	03-08-2004 21:24									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I'd call that peace.

What is the army and police for?

	03-08-2004 21:33									#129
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Ag - Hate to break it to you bro, but the only person scoring points for Team Red is Monolith....read his posts and make notes!

Che

Man will never make it to the moon!

The Genome is a mystery that will never be cracked.

Human cloning will never be possible.

Teleportation is not possible!

yeah, I'm sure we'll never develop self aware machines either...

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 21:35									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious What is the army and police for?

Last time I checked, criminals being arrested was not "war".

If you mean "application of force" by "war", then there's ALWAYS war, so it's a pointless term.

	03-08-2004 21:36									#131
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quote: Not when we build machines capable of designing new machines.

Thats the whole idea of polymorphism, isn't it?

	03-08-2004 21:37									#132
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The only polymorphism with which I'm familiar is class inheritence

	03-08-2004 21:37									#133
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Kid....*sigh* never mind.

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 21:42									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Last time I checked, criminals being arrested was not "war". If you mean "application of force" by "war", then there's ALWAYS war, so it's a pointless term.

'Application of force' isn't pointless.

	03-08-2004 21:43									#135
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But describing the state of the world by saying that force is being applied somewhere is stupid, because it always is and always will be.

	03-08-2004 21:49									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker But describing the state of the world by saying that force is being applied somewhere is stupid, because it always is and always will be.

Ohhh let me get my Adam Smith quote.

	03-08-2004 21:52									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon It doesn't matter whether we have self aware machines or not. The fact that all indicators point to us being able to create intelligent machines that are cheaper and more efficient than human workers is. It is some way off, but there does not seem to be any reason why it shouldn't happen. People who deny this are like people who, when seeing Goddard's experiments in rocketry, denied that human beings would go to the moon.

Somebody has to maintain the things.

	03-08-2004 21:53									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker The only polymorphism with which I'm familiar is class inheritence

	03-08-2004 21:55									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker But describing the state of the world by saying that force is being applied somewhere is stupid, because it always is and always will be.

"Civil govt, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none."

-Adam Smith

The type of force that we are talking about only applies to social systems where there are property owners.

	03-08-2004 22:10									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker The only polymorphism with which I'm familiar is class inheritence

One does not simply take sand from a beach and produce a Dataprobe.

	03-08-2004 22:24									#141
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Oooh, SMAC quotes! I likey!

	03-08-2004 22:29									#142
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No, thats what I meant by polymorphism. The whole idea is to adapt, reshape to the task.

	03-08-2004 22:31									#143
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* Arrian decides to dip his toe into this thread

Side question regarding the possibility of self-aware machines:

If we do in fact manage to truely come up with AI, can we really expect those machines to do our work for us? Leaving aside the "OMG THE MACHINES ARE TAKING OVER" possibility, even if they were still under our control, ala the robots of Asimov's imagination, would we not have simply created a new form of slavery?

-Arrian

	03-08-2004 23:17									#144
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious "Civil govt, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none." -Adam Smith The type of force that we are talking about only applies to social systems where there are property owners.

Which are all social systems, whether the owners are the state, the party, or your tribe. Nobody has ever made a point of saying "hey, take all the valuable resources you want, we don't care" - or at least, they haven't survived on the planet long enough for anyone to take notes that they said that.

	03-08-2004 23:20									#145
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quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf No, thats what I meant by polymorphism. The whole idea is to adapt, reshape to the task.

I understood

but only after the SMAC quote

	03-08-2004 23:22									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian * Arrian decides to dip his toe into this thread Side question regarding the possibility of self-aware machines: If we do in fact manage to truely come up with AI, can we really expect those machines to do our work for us? Leaving aside the "OMG THE MACHINES ARE TAKING OVER" possibility, even if they were still under our control, ala the robots of Asimov's imagination, would we not have simply created a new form of slavery? -Arrian

Not if we made them in such a way that they'd WANT to serve us - that is, they'd serve us of their own free will. We give them free will, but make them so that they're predisposed towards service

	04-08-2004 00:35									#147
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Which are all social systems, whether the owners are the state, the party, or your tribe. Nobody has ever made a point of saying "hey, take all the valuable resources you want, we don't care" - or at least, they haven't survived on the planet long enough for anyone to take notes that they said that.

There's a difference between creating an enemy for yourself in an attempt to rule over them and then protecting yourself from them, and just protecting yourself. If you create enemies for yourself you need much more protection for yourself, and the act is hostile.

Of course the rulers don't distiguish between the two, but the victims do. If I take your land and then set up guards around it you will hardly call that peace just because you don't try to take the land back by force.