03-08-2004 08:20									#61
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That's always a good argument.

"Of course you do silly boy...you just don't know it yet!"

And it is you who are quite mistaken.

Yes, there is no doubting that we need some form of governance.

I never said there wasn't.

What is not needed is a monolithic, highly centralized power to tell you when to stand, when to sit, what to think, and when to $hit.

No thanks.

I'm all for the rule of law. Definitely not an archist.

But tell me...how would your flavor of the month of communism be any different than what's come before?

How would you implement it? How would you deal with dissenters and folks who really didn't appreciate the sublime logic of strongarming all their posessions "for the good of the state" (which of course, magically translates to "for their own good").

There is a tremendous difference between needing "the state"

and needing the sort of highly centralized apparatus that communism requires.

If you can't see that, then it must be all those dang trees getting in the way again.
-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 08:38									#62
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quote: What is not needed is a monolithic, highly centralized power to tell you when to stand, when to sit, what to think, and when to $hit.

And how many communists on this board actually argue for that?

In fact what you've described sounds like a lot of schools and many places of employment.

quote: How would you implement it? How would you deal with dissenters and folks who really didn't appreciate the sublime logic of strongarming all their posessions "for the good of the state" (which of course, magically translates to "for their own good").

The same way capitalism deals with dissenters, by ignoring them. There's a reason that radical anarchists, libertarians and communists can't get much traction in contemporary politics: most people are reasonably satisfied with welfare state capitalism and the very structure of the system makes it hard to dissent effectively (radical anarchists and poor people tend not to own media empires, and even if they did other interests would make sure they failed).

And we already get strongarmed by the state every day - for our own good.

Jesus, most left wing people I know are not calling for an immediate communist revolution (maybe Che is, but I'm not). Rather they are calling for specific reforms within the welfare state capitalist system to deal with specific problems like pollution and unemployment.

Arguments about the validity of a communist utopia are interesting theoretical arguments, but they have little practical applicability at this very moment in time. Like almost everything in human affairs, we will cross that bridge when we come to it.

quote: How would you implement it?

That's a nonsensical question. Who implemented capitalism? Nobody - it implemented itself. It just happened as a response to social and technological developments.

If you want to ignore the most fundamental aspect of Marxism (its radical historicity) then go ahead. Unless you argue against that, you aren't addressing the point.

	03-08-2004 08:47									#63
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Agathon,

your own language suggests a specific point of implementation.

most left wing people I know are not calling for an immediate communist revolution

What else could that possibly mean?

A communist revolution needs revolutionaries. People who lead the charge and usher in the new system.

Those are your implementors.

And let us assume the revolution comes tomorrow....it's implementation will have to be forcible, because I can't think of too many of the wealthy who will just hand over their worldly goods when you show up asking for them "for their own good."

In fact then, in order to maintain order and deal with these "dissenters" you'll need a highly centralized political machine to pull the revolution off.

Once it's established, do you really think that the fathers OF said revolution will simply relinquish their absolute power?

Really?

Of course they won't.

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 08:55									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx and needing the sort of highly centralized apparatus that communism requires.

Does not.

	03-08-2004 08:55									#65
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quote: And let us assume the revolution comes tomorrow....

Which I pointed out is extremely unlikely. The revolutionaries are unlikely to get any sort of traction until a large proportion of the public loses faith in the current system. You seem to think that people like Che will turn up at the Capitol tomorrow and seize power to the astonishment of the general public. Give me a break...

Do you actually read what other people post, or do you just have a stock of asinine comments that you save for relevant occasions?

	03-08-2004 08:58									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Who implemented capitalism? Nobody - it implemented itself. It just happened as a response to social and technological developments.

Vel thinks that communism is about implementing a master plan to rule the world.

	03-08-2004 09:00									#67
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I always laugh at the "no no, that wasn't REALLY Communism!!!"

Sorry, there are no "do-overs"

	03-08-2004 09:02									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Vel thinks that communism is about implementing a master plan to rule the world.

Shut up... that's supposed to be our secret.

quote: Sorry, there are no "do-overs"

Post 1929 Keynesian policies....

	03-08-2004 09:04									#69
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Ummm...actually it is about ruling the world.

So sayeth every Red who bemoans the previous failures of the red pony by saying that it can't work until and unless it's implemented on a global scale.

What does that suggest to you?

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 09:10									#70
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As to the looming revolution....

You're absolutely correct. Can't happen unless a significant portion of the population loses faith in the current system.

However, "significant portion" and "all of" aren't the same thing.

I may have trouble balancing my check book, but my math's not THAT bad.

So...when you reach that point, again, you think it'll just be bloodless. All-join-hand-and-sing-Kumbayah together while we confiscate your stuff?

Not likely.

Which means violence.

If you lack the stomach for it, you're prolly in the wrong game.

If you don't think it will require a highly centralized approach (Kid) then you're living in a land not dissimilar to Chutes and Ladders or Candyland.

Pure fantasy.

But please, feel free to tell me how, if not in that manner. (which should make for good reading!)'

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 09:13									#71
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quote: However, "significant portion" and "all of" aren't the same thing.

This is no different than what we have now. Libertarians still pay taxes, even though they gripe about it, and communists still go to work, even though they think they are being exploited.

When laws change and taxes are hiked or property is appropriated for public use, people gripe - but most get used to it.

Why don't you find a workable argument before you waste people's time again?

	03-08-2004 09:15									#72
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Even better, why don't you Reds find a workable SYSTEM before wasting our time again....

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 09:17									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Shut up... that's supposed to be our secret.

Trust me. It won't matter. He still doesn't have a chance.

	03-08-2004 09:18									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Ummm...actually it is about ruling the world.

	03-08-2004 09:23									#75
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Ag,

Was 'How to Rule the World; the first or second chapter of Das Kapital ? Im not sure if 'How to Stifle all Freedom' was the first.

	03-08-2004 09:33									#76
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how pretty it looks on paper, Kid, has NOTHING to do with real world implementation, as you should be painfully aware of by now (read some history if you need a refresher).

True or untrue that you call for a global implementation?

(simple question here)

True or untrue that global implementation...well...encompasses the whole of the earth?

I know, those are pretty tricky, but...try...'k?

But it don't much matter. As I've mentioned before, global implementation requires all the Reds to be on the same page as far as WHAT is to be implemented, and since right now, you guys can't even decide WHAT you want, we're in no danger.

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 09:53									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx True or untrue that you call for a global implementation?

True, but calling for one and actually implementing one are two different things. I'm not planning to implement communism. I'm just one man calling for it.

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx implementation...well...encompasses the whole of the earth?

Absolutely, communism won't work until it does encompass the earth. Communism is about peace as much as anything els. Peace is the prized possesion that we seek.

	03-08-2004 09:56									#78
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This is a meaningless post, I just wanted to draw attention to my signature, which features a Kidicious quote, with contextual commentary

	03-08-2004 09:58									#79
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pretty easily accomplished once you crush the life out of anybody who dares think anything other than officially sanctioned party dogma.

Oh, and keep tight controls over the flow of information in order to ensure that party dogma is the only stuff that makes the rounds.

and eliminate any and all radical elements (you know, people who like to think for themselves once in a while).

Yep...do those things, and keep doing them (gotta keep that guard up, cos radical elements can crop up at any time), and it should be paradise in the bread line!

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 10:00									#80
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DF!

Hope you're feeling better, man!

And Kid, you're not making any sense.

If you're not planning to implement Commie-Land globally, AND you say that it won't work unless you do....what exactly ARE you saying?

LOL

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 10:05									#81
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I think he's saying that he wishes "someone" would, but he's not gonna be the one to do it, and since he's not gonna be that person, he doesn't have to have a rational plan for implementation.

	03-08-2004 10:08									#82
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Living in a highly centralized, socialized society has nothing to do with not having to think, etc. Indeed, a truly socialist society FREES a person, allowing them to pursue the profession, to pursue whatever allows them to do the most good in the world, by removing the shackles of fiscal burden.

Although it can be argued that fiscal burden has a positive effect on an artist's output, but that's a rather cynical viewpoint.

And the Russians didn't raise slackers and lazy workers. In actuality, I've found from my reading in last semester's Revolutionary Russia class that the average worker worked really hard. What they crushed was political ambition, political independence. A nation of political sycophants. But lazy? No.

Velocyrix - all of this stuff about crushing thoughts outside the party line... That's Stalinist, even Leninist communism. Admittedly, the sort of Communism that doesn't work - at all. What offers a better solution is an intellectually liberated socialist state.

	03-08-2004 10:09									#83
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Yeah, I got that part....what *I'm* saying is...you know, from a planning perspective, those are pretty important questions to have answers for before the starting gun goes off.

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 10:11									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx how pretty it looks on paper, Kid, has NOTHING to do with real world implementation, as you should be painfully aware of by now (read some history if you need a refresher).

And that is a perfect summation of where the pro Communist argument always fails.

Well done Vel.

	03-08-2004 10:14									#85
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Monolith - again, I'm not disagreeing with you.

It's plain to see that the Russian implementation of communism didn't get the job done.

And it wasn't because the workers were lazy....it was because the system was rotten to the core. What productivity there was was pissed away by self-serving party bosses, but even that was only part of the problem (it's a matter of all the hard work in the world not making up for smart, efficient work, which was almost entirely lacking).

Nonetheless, the proposed system is so radically different from what we've got in the here and now, that force will be the only viable means to implement the initial change.

That means crushing dissent, because the two systems are in no way compatible.

And if you start off on that footing, you'll wind up with the same result that the russians did.

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 10:15									#86
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Thank ya, Master Striker!

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 10:15									#87
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Obviously, global implementation is utterly ludicrous. We're all just talking theory here. Communism is for all intents and purposes dead. The last fibres of leftist socialist ideology seem to be hanging on in Scandinavia. Thankfully, a peaceful enough region where they may develop.

	03-08-2004 10:18									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx What is not needed is a monolithic, highly centralized power to tell you when to stand, when to sit, what to think, and when to $hit.

Who's arguing for one? Do you like setting up strawmen? Is it fun?

	03-08-2004 10:18									#89
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Okay....but IF it's just idle theory, then why bother with membership drives?

Why talk at all about the coming of the revolution?

And if global implementation is ludicrous, but that's the only way it can be made workable...then isn't that tantamount to creating another in a series of failures IF said revolution occurs at all??

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 10:20									#90
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Ummm...actually it is about ruling the world. So sayeth every Red who bemoans the previous failures of the red pony by saying that it can't work until and unless it's implemented on a global scale. What does that suggest to you? -=Vel=-

If it were merely about ruling the world, most of us commies are actually really freakin' intelligent people, and we understand the system a lot better than you. If it were merely about ruling the world, we'd rule it as capitalists.