31-07-2004 03:49									#1
	The Dead Horse Rides again: Cap/Com Debate Full PM-box? Change here!

So as not to unduly threadjack the death...erm...estate tax thread, I figured I'd give us another sandbox to play in, especially since every time we do this both sides get so many converts...

And sorry Kid, with the search function down, I'm not about to sift through 1100 pages of OT archive to point out stuff everybody already knows you said. Don't wanna let you exploit me like that, you know...

That said, everybody don your flame retardant underwear, shall we?

-=Vel=-

	31-07-2004 03:53									#2
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Take that you Horse!

	31-07-2004 04:31									#3
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You need a new argument. Your old argument is just sad.

	31-07-2004 04:32									#4
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communism cant exist anymore. marx can no longer say that the workers of today have no access to the wealth. stock options allow the working class to own the means of production - no need for revolution.

	31-07-2004 04:58									#5
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Communism rules, capitalism drools.

	31-07-2004 05:00									#6
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this is a non issue. Unless we can invent the machine to get to never never land and rescue peter pan from the crocodile, well it's more of a debate than this one.

edit: OK sorry, I have to respect your wish for da flames. I think that both systems have their loopholes, and both are good ideas, utopias, but Capitalism is the one that gets little closer to functioning where as Communism fails earlier. At the end, they both fail, but I just think Communism fails at earlier stages.

	31-07-2004 05:10									#7
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Capitalizm OWNZ, Communism BLOWNZ

	31-07-2004 05:22									#8
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Communism rules, capitalism drools.

Which explains the degree of success of the two systems in the real world.

Oh, and if this turns into a spam fest, it really will be a dead horse.

	31-07-2004 05:47									#9
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Die, thread, die!

	31-07-2004 06:04									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia communism cant exist anymore. marx can no longer say that the workers of today have no access to the wealth. stock options allow the working class to own the means of production - no need for revolution.

Stock options do not exist for most workers and don't make workers in any way shape or form equal partners in the economic process.

Anyway, it's not about wealth. It's about the inherenet instability of capitalism. This economic system hasn't been able to go an entire decade without tripping, stumbling, or collapsing. When it does, it isn't the rulers of society who suffer, it's those on the low end of the totem pole. It's the workers who lose their jobs, homes, families, etc.

In addition, capitalists distort the political process. Look at the inordinate power of a Richard Mellon-Scaife, who so hobbled the Clinton presidency that the President was unable to do his job, which may have resulted in 9/11. Two hundred FBI agents were busing investigating the Clintons because of this man's hatred, instead of looking into people learning to fly planes but not learning how to land them. That's just one extreme example.

	31-07-2004 06:32									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia communism cant exist anymore. marx can no longer say that the workers of today have no access to the wealth. stock options allow the working class to own the means of production - no need for revolution.

Until the workers own all the stocks there will be no peace.

	31-07-2004 09:27									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia communism cant exist anymore. marx can no longer say that the workers of today have no access to the wealth. stock options allow the working class to own the means of production - no need for revolution.

You will find very few cases, if at all, that stock options were given to the proletariat instead of management and white collars (middle class).

	31-07-2004 10:12									#13
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quote: It's about the inherenet instability of capitalism.

Yeah, communism has such a wonderful record of stability. Why, they almost made it threw 7 decades without going under.

	31-07-2004 10:18									#14
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Berz

Other than the obvious misspelling.

	31-07-2004 10:42									#15
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umm, that was never communism

it was highjacked almost immediately

JM
(it would be like saying, look at the French Revolution, democracy is doomed)

	31-07-2004 10:45									#16
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oh - I thought this thread was about me.

	31-07-2004 10:46									#17
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so did I...

JM
(or games)

	31-07-2004 11:00									#18
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Yeah, talk about false advertising...

	31-07-2004 11:46									#19
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it would have been more interesting too

	31-07-2004 11:52									#20
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Communism has a bright future. I saw it in Star Trek, that episode at the end of the first season of TNG, when the Enterprise found three humans from the 20th (?) century frozen in an old spaceship. They reanimated them, and one was a banker or something, and he wanted to contact his bank about his money stocks and stuff. Picard said that humans do not work anymore to get rich in his time, and that material wealth does not play a role anymore etc.

	31-07-2004 12:19									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Jon Miller umm, that was never communism it was highjacked almost immediately JM (it would be like saying, look at the French Revolution, democracy is doomed)

Berz says that Communism lasted 70 years before dying out, and then you say "Lies! This is false! Communism died almost immediately!"

You have a lot to learn about making effective arguments.

	31-07-2004 12:20									#22
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro Communism has a bright future. I saw it in Star Trek, that episode at the end of the first season of TNG, when the Enterprise found three humans from the 20th (?) century frozen in an old spaceship. They reanimated them, and one was a banker or something, and he wanted to contact his bank about his money stocks and stuff. Picard said that humans do not work anymore to get rich in his time, and that material wealth does not play a role anymore etc.

If it's on Star Trek, the holy show, savior of all nerd-dom, it must be true.

	31-07-2004 13:27									#23
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Jag makes an excellent point!

And this, to me, is one of the most amusing aspects of Communism.

'k....here we got a system that they say can ONLY work effectively if it's global in it's scope, right? (one of the few things we can actually get most to agree on)

"Global in its scope" means, by default (one would imagine, at any rate), ONE implementation, yes?

One.

And yet, I don't think we got two reds on this board who have the same vision on WHAT is to be implemented, exactly.

You point to past failures of Big Red, and they quickly backpedal, even going so far as to blaspheme against their Comrades of old "oh no! that's not REAL Communism! What we need is...." And then proceed to trip all over each other like the Keystone-Cops-in-Red, each hawking their own brand of Utopia like it's the best thing since sliced bread.

We got statists who say that there can BE no final commie utopia.

We got purists who say that the statists have not the first clue what they're saying.

We got fruitloops who want spacebots on the darkside of the moon to handle all production, and remove the human element entirely.

In short, the reds, who demand ONE singular implementation of this paradise called Communism, got more "brands" of what they're espousing than Unix has flavors.

These aren't just similar shades of red, either...these are visions of communism that have differences at some pretty fundamental levels.

And they'll be quick to whine, I'm sure, that "well, capitalism has lots of flavors too!"

And that's true.

The difference, however, is that capitalism does not require that the whole world fall under a singular capitalistic umbrella, and so, it can afford to have lots of flavors.

Not true with what they're proposing.

Point to ANY communistic failure in the past, and they'll whine that it's not a fair comparison, cos you know, that wasn't REALLY communism, and certainly not what THEY'RE pushing for.

Must be nice to live in such blissful denial, but I guess everybody needs a cause, right?

-=Vel=-

	31-07-2004 13:41									#24
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Whoever has all the beanie babies wins, and capitalism is winning in this regard.

I however, plan to load a tank full of beanie babies and drive in the street.

	31-07-2004 13:50									#25
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che: One might argue that an economic dip per decade is preferable to an economy that's continually at the floor.

	31-07-2004 13:53									#26
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LC, say it with me "but those weren't REALLY Communism...."



Pick a flavor and let us try again....just....don't pick any of those we've FUBAR'd before...



-=Vel=-

	31-07-2004 13:58									#27
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Whoever has all the beanie babies wins, and capitalism is winning in this regard. I however, plan to load a tank full of beanie babies and drive in the street.

	31-07-2004 14:21									#28
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The Indian state of Kerala is a communist success story. Their economy isn't so hot, but they have first-world literacy, healthcare, life expectancy, womens's rights and so on.

Their success can be attributed to two things:

1. A strong commitment to democracy.
2. Kerala was protected from American predation by being part of a larger, leftish democracy.

	31-07-2004 14:33									#29
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yah

I have read about that

it sounds awesome

JM

	31-07-2004 14:35									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Jaguar If it's on Star Trek, the holy show, savior of all nerd-dom, it must be true.

Do I read some sarcasm here? Do you want to imply that Picard is lying?!?!?!