03-08-2004 10:21									#91
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Well Che, let's see.

We're not gonna let the market decide, so we need a....what?

A central agency to plan?

And of course, that central agency needs to be able to defend itself, cos it's gonna be born into a hostile environment.

Which means guns to guard the butter, yes?

Put guns and all the power in the hands of those in the center, and...what do you have again?

:: shakes head sadly::

Do you even KNOW what you're arguing for?

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 10:24									#92
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 Velocyrix - all of this stuff about crushing thoughts outside the party line... That's Stalinist, even Leninist communism.

You might want to consider that while Lenin was alive, the Bolsheviks and Communists were always a multitendency organization, with Lenin frequently being outvoted. It was only in the 1930s that the Party became monolithic, once the Trotskyists and Buhkarinists had been purged. It took Stalin more than ten years to get the party all to himself, so it's not a quality of Leninism.

	03-08-2004 10:25									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Well Che, let's see. strawman stawman strawman

Argue against what I write, not what you think I believe, okay?

	03-08-2004 10:29									#94
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That's the beauty of the theory, Che....the sublime nature of it.

It's all join hands, sing a few rounds of Kumbayah and isn't life grand, but glosses over the fact that it's implementation is brutal.

How do we know this?

History's a wonderful guide.

Prove me wrong tho....tell us about Communism's peaceful implementation.

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 10:31									#95
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Tell me about capitalism's peaceful implimentation.

	03-08-2004 10:34									#96
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artful dodge, but you see, I'm not the one calling for the revolution.

Capitalism's here. What you're arguing for is not (or at least, not to hear you guys tell it...it's AMAZING the speed with which ya'll backpedal away from the fathers of the previous revolutions).

So if it's coming...tell us how?

If it's NOT going to be the same old highly centralized song and dance, if it's not going to be filled with purgings, then....what?

How will the NEXT glorious revolution be different?

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 10:34									#97
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Global implementation is a simplistic fantasy of naive idealists. But I'd rather have a naive idealist on my side than a pessimistic capitalist.

How does Communism actually become implemented? We mechanize society to the point where the entire blue-collar worker is superfluous. This will eventually happen. Not for quite a while, but I believe it will.

Simply put, I think that it will take years and years and years for society to change in such a fundamental way, but it will happen. And it will be a lot more complex than anyone on this thread is making it out to be.

	03-08-2004 10:37									#98
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd This is a meaningless post, I just wanted to draw attention to my signature, which features a Kidicious quote, with contextual commentary

I don't really support either of those things DF. That's capitalism.

	03-08-2004 10:37									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx So if it's coming...tell us how?

If I knew the answer to that, I'd be leading a real communist party, and not the Communist Party of Apolyton.

Anyways, as you don't seem to seriously want a real discussion, I'm just gonna dance around poke fun at you.

	03-08-2004 10:37									#100
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quote: I don't really support either of those things DF. That's capitalism.

Oh, you don't support welfare? Can I also assume that you oppose all other "wealth-transfer" programs?

	03-08-2004 10:41									#101
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Monolith, I like that answer. It has the ring of truth and honesty to it.

It's genuine.

You're essentially fessing up to the fact that you don't know, and that's a good thing.

That is, I believe, what's at the core of the problem with the vast majority of the folks arguing for Communism on this, and other boards I fight the good fight for Capitalism on.

Yeah yeah, the red desciples have read the book and god but it all sounds so groovy and they get all excited thinking about the day when utopia arrives.....

....but they don't stop to consider exactly what that means, I don't think (and it certainly doesn't seem so). The specific steps required to get to that point.

They talk a good game about a radically altered system of deciding on how goods and services are doled out, without thinking about the infrastructure required to support it (ie - Che's comment that he "wasn't arguing for" a highly centralized apparatus....that's pretty much what a central planning agency IS, and it does require defense, but...anyway...that's veeringn off-topic).

Anyhoo....I appreciate your candor...

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 10:42									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx How will the NEXT glorious revolution be different?

We will crush ALL of the counter-revolutionaries!

	03-08-2004 10:42									#103
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And props to Che, who also fessed up that he didn't have those answers.

Folks....before the revolution comes...it might be a good idea to give those questions some thought.

Not that I'm trying to help ya'll along, but....if you're hoping to avoid the mistakes of the past, it just might be a good idea.

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 10:44									#104
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Oh, you don't support welfare? Can I also assume that you oppose all other "wealth-transfer" programs?

I don't oppose or support any programs for capitalism. I argue about the fundamentals and justification of such things. It's just for my own interest.

	03-08-2004 10:51									#105
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Velocyrix - the main driving force of Socialism is PEACE. This is why corporations have no true interest in peace.

At this point in our history, a true, lasting peace seems really difficult to achieve. When it does, then and only then can we talk about reform. Right now I feel that our government should be focused on developing stability in the third world.

	03-08-2004 10:57									#106
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Monolith - an interesting theory.

I disagree, but I find it intriguing.

The *reason* I disagree is this:

Arms dealers aside, companies have a hard time selling their wares in war-torn areas (not only does demand tend to drop, but also costs tend to rise--transport trucks vanishing en route, etc).

I'm sorry to say that the demand for CD's and Microwaves isn't all that great in areas that are devastated by warring.

And then there's the simple mathematics of it all. War kills. Less people = less total demand.

Yes?

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 11:06									#107
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Yeah, you can't get them to buy much stuff, but you can get them to work for you cheap.

	03-08-2004 11:08									#108
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ahhh, but if nobody's buying, what does it matter?

and setting up shop IN wartorn areas is even riskier business than trying to ship goods there.

-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 12:30									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Arms dealers aside, companies have a hard time selling their wares in war-torn areas (not only does demand tend to drop, but also costs tend to rise--transport trucks vanishing en route, etc).

They have a hard time selling their wares in an area that is not secured by the military of the govt that supports them.

	03-08-2004 12:43									#110
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Yes yes! All our American companies are doing SO much business in the green zones in Iraq!

An excellent point!



-=Vel=-

	03-08-2004 18:36									#111
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Well this thread has got boring.

People come up with arguments and Vel responds with flatulence.

I've told you Vel why implementation is not a problem for communists any more than it is for capitalists. It's not my fault, nor anyone else's, that you have either ignored or misunderstood this.

	03-08-2004 18:42									#112
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd This is a meaningless post, I just wanted to draw attention to my signature, which features a Kidicious quote, with contextual commentary

I jumped on him for that one

	03-08-2004 18:44									#113
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 Living in a highly centralized, socialized society has nothing to do with not having to think, etc. Indeed, a truly socialist society FREES a person, allowing them to pursue the profession, to pursue whatever allows them to do the most good in the world, by removing the shackles of fiscal burden. Although it can be argued that fiscal burden has a positive effect on an artist's output, but that's a rather cynical viewpoint. And the Russians didn't raise slackers and lazy workers. In actuality, I've found from my reading in last semester's Revolutionary Russia class that the average worker worked really hard. What they crushed was political ambition, political independence. A nation of political sycophants. But lazy? No.

That's because in the Soviet Union people had to work for their pay (sort of). It was basically a giant, monopolistic company.

	03-08-2004 18:47									#114
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quote: Originally posted by monolith94 Velocyrix - the main driving force of Socialism is PEACE. This is why corporations have no true interest in peace.

Actually, war sucks for business - it makes trade more difficult.

	03-08-2004 18:48									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious They have a hard time selling their wares in an area that is not secured by the military of the govt that supports them.

That's the point, isn't it? If it's all nice and peaceful, a lot easier to employ people/sell your stuff.

	03-08-2004 20:16									#116
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quote: Actually, war sucks for business - it makes trade more difficult.

Really? I suppose that explains the mega corporate welfare programs handed out to defence contractors and Halliburton charging outrageous sums for inedible food.

I suppose that explains why arms account for the highest proportion of traded goods in the world.

	03-08-2004 20:20									#117
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quote: We mechanize society to the point where the entire blue-collar worker is superfluous. This will eventually happen. Not for quite a while, but I believe it will.

And when they become self-aware, they become an underclass. In fact, I wrote a short story about it; they implented Orwellian thought control methods on the robots to keep them from revolting. Except, it used the euphemism "antivirus software", and the hunter-seeker algorithm came to mind.

	03-08-2004 20:24									#118
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So we don't design machines with the capacity for self-awareness. Frankly, I'm not sure it's possible to create truely self-aware machines based on silicon and electricity.

	03-08-2004 20:32									#119
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Problem is, with the rate "new-age thinking" etc. developes, some people will strive to assign them those properties.

	03-08-2004 20:37									#120
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I do believe we're rapidly approaching a point where we won't even understand our own creations anymore. At that point, it may seem like machines are capable of independent thought, but I don't think it would actually be true.