17-08-2004 20:20									#391
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: If you disagree with me, then what part about that you disagree? 1. The Bush team isn't sponsoring the SwiftVets, so I fail to see how you can criticize the Bushies for a strategy they aren't actually using.

Of course they're not "sponsoring" them - that would create financial accountability, donation restrictions, etc. They're just "coordinating" the same way the RNC and Reagan and Bush I campaigns "coordinated" with the Christian Coalition and other groups. Soft money groups always have less constraints than candidate campaign organizations, and they also fall under "soft money" contribution rules.

quote: 2. I fail to see how the SwiftVets charges are mudslinging. They're all veterans of the same unit as Kerry. They've brought up charges they aren't outlandish, one of which has already proven true. If questions about Kerry's service record in Vietnam (the centerpiece of his campaign) can't be raised by his former comrades (used by Kerry himself in his political ads), then who exactly can question Kerry without it being considered "mudslinging"?

Of course, they're all just apolitical, scrupulously honest guys who've been saying the same thing consistently since the events took place. They're not partisan, helped and financially promoted by partisan operatives, and nothing they say now contradicts what they said or conspicuously failed to bother saying at the time.

I guess allegations about Bush and those Mexican houseboys wouldn't be mudslinging either.

	17-08-2004 20:23									#392
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten At least Bush has opened up his military records. Why won't Kerry do the same?

There's no dispute as to Kerry's presence or time of service. Kerry's primary records are available (and have no doubt been obtained many times) under the Freedom of Information Act. What Bush "opened" were payroll and medical records, which aren't at issue with Kerry.

i.e. Kerry didn't fail to report for a physical and thereby get bumped from flight status, and Kerry's physical whereabouts for nearly a year weren't in question.

	17-08-2004 20:27									#393
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Kerry's physical whereabouts for nearly a year weren't in question.

Simply his whereabouts for Xmas eve 1968, for which he played the part of a martyr for political gain/relevancy.

	17-08-2004 20:30									#394
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka I think they both suck.

	17-08-2004 20:50									#395
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Simply his whereabouts for Xmas eve 1968, for which he played the part of a martyr for political gain/relevancy.

I don't think his boat's nav logs are in his personal records. They are, however, in the Navy's records or the National Archives, and he has no control over them, just like the flight logs and squadron AAR's that showed conclusively that LBJ's Silver Star citation was fraudulent.

	17-08-2004 21:04									#396
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You're not implying that Kerry like LBJ has received fraudulent medals are you?

	17-08-2004 21:23									#397
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten If Bush were completely incompetent we would've had a civil war on our hands a long time ago.

If Bush were completely incompetent, he would have withdrawn from Iraq leaving Iraq to its fate. The chaos that resulted would have made the post-Soviet Afghanistan look like a well ordered children's zoo by comparison.

The only people calling for withdrawal are the far left.

	17-08-2004 21:25									#398
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe You're not implying that Kerry like LBJ has received fraudulent medals are you?

I'm implying Kerry isn't the one who has control over the relevant records.

	17-08-2004 21:27									#399
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quote: Originally posted by Ned If Bush were completely incompetent, he would have withdrawn from Iraq leaving Iraq to its fate. The chaos that resulted would have made the post-Soviet Afghanistan look like a well ordered children's zoo by comparison. The only people calling for withdrawal are the far left.

Most of us are calling for the sitution to not be continued to be handled half-assedly, and perhaps a little less fattening of Halliburton.

	17-08-2004 21:30									#400
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH Isnt there a technical term for southerners supporting yankees?

Yes, there is, but in theory, Johnny-boy is a good ol' boy, so I'm only half scalawag.

Then again, sacrifices must be made.

	17-08-2004 21:31									#401
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Ned, Only far everything calls the military not to be strengthened more so they can have the necessary tools to get the job done and come back home celebrating victory. Slow burning != victory. And even jackass like me knows it .

	17-08-2004 21:31									#402
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Ned sighting!

	17-08-2004 21:55									#403
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Most of us are calling for the sitution to not be continued to be handled half-assedly, and perhaps a little less fattening of Halliburton.

To your and Kerry's credit, the moderate left has been calling for MORE troops, not less.

	17-08-2004 21:58									#404
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BTW, a major reason the mainstream media are NOT covering the charges of Kerry's fellow servicemen is that the Bush campaign has not endorsed those charges in anyway whatsoever. It would be very difficult for Bush to now endorse the charges given McCain public condemnation. Bush needs McCain more than he needs the Swiftboat Veterans.

	17-08-2004 22:04									#405
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To be honest with you, MtG, I cringe when I think of turning a hot war over to a Democrat, especially an Vietnam anti-war type like Kerry. I think back to the way Johnson handled Vietnam: More and more troops and no strategy for victory.

	17-08-2004 22:07									#406
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quote: Originally posted by Ned To be honest with you, MtG, I cringe when I think of turning a hot war over to a Democrat, especially an Vietnam anti-war type like Kerry. I think back to the way Johnson handled Vietnam: More and more troops and no strategy for victory.

yeah Roosevelt really botched WW2... those damn Democrats can't fight a war worth a damn!

	17-08-2004 22:09									#407
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quote: It would be very difficult for Bush to now endorse the charges given McCain public condemnation. Bush needs McCain more than he needs the Swiftboat Veterans.

And also, it'd seem VERY petty and put people off, especially since Bush has no combat experience.

	17-08-2004 22:12									#408
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quote: Originally posted by Ned To be honest with you, MtG, I cringe when I think of turning a hot war over to a Democrat, especially an Vietnam anti-war type like Kerry. I think back to the way Johnson handled Vietnam: More and more troops and no strategy for victory.

As opposed to not enough troops, denying the need for more, and no strategy for victory or stabilization?

	17-08-2004 22:12									#409
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btw, good to see you ned, I had forgotten what a crazy place the Nedaverse is.

	17-08-2004 22:12									#410
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quote: Originally posted by Ned To be honest with you, MtG, I cringe when I think of turning a hot war over to a Democrat, especially an Vietnam anti-war type like Kerry. I think back to the way Johnson handled Vietnam: More and more troops and no strategy for victory.

And what would such a strategy have been? We were trying to keep the corrupt south vietnamese regime in power without starting world war three with a full scale invasion of North Vietnam and so forth.

Vietnam was an unwinnable war from day 1.

Of course, if you look at this century and last, Republicans have not gotten involved in any wars with anyone but small powers (Grenada, Panama, Iraq) while it was dems, over republicans opposition, who got involved in 2 world wars. After the cold war, with republican backing, into two ground wars in Asia. Both which were then left to Republicans- one was left a cease-fire, the other we left and eventually our ally was swallowed.

So yes, republicans have such a sterling military record for you to be proud off... OH, WAIT, NO.

	17-08-2004 22:15									#411
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quote: Originally posted by Sava yeah Roosevelt really botched WW2... those damn Democrats can't fight a war worth a damn!

Think also about Korea.

Roosevelt was great, no doubt. But think back to the civil war. The Dems were in favor of a negotiated settlement with the South. They wanted to end the war even then short of victory.

	17-08-2004 22:17									#412
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It would be very difficult for Bush to now endorse the charges given McCain public condemnation. Bush needs McCain more than he needs the Swiftboat Veterans. And also, it'd seem VERY petty and put people off, especially since Bush has no combat experience.

Well, Kerry now will have to drop the Bush-deserter charges. If he raises that issue during the rest of the campaign, Bush can retaliate now with the SwiftVets charges.

	17-08-2004 22:17									#413
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quote: Originally posted by Sava btw, good to see you ned, I had forgotten what a crazy place the Nedaverse is.

Thanks Sava.

Good to hear from you too.

	17-08-2004 22:18									#414
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Well, Kerry now will have to drop the Bush-deserter charges. If he raises that issue during the rest of the campaign, Bush can retaliate now with the SwiftVets charges.

Not really, since as was stated before, McCain, who carries heavy political heft, has come all out against these bozos. Specially since members of this group in the past called McCain a collaborator with the North Vietnamese.

	17-08-2004 22:21									#415
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Yeah welcome back Ned.. good to see familiar faces again. It was getting kind of boring.

	17-08-2004 22:26									#416
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GePap, think also of Lincoln who refused to surrender the South vs. McClellan who wanted to let them go.

Also think of Kuwait. Bush drove Saddam out while Kerry voted against the war.

I am not so sure our involvement in WWI was helpful.

As I said before and will say it again, FDR was a great, great president.

	17-08-2004 22:28									#417
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Yeah welcome back Ned.. good to see familiar faces again. It was getting kind of boring.

Good to see you too, Pekka.

	17-08-2004 23:50									#418
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat As opposed to not enough troops, denying the need for more, and no strategy for victory or stabilization?

Actually, Bush is pursuing "Vietnamization" as did Nixon 30 years ago.

Kerry kept calling for some sort of UN High Commissioner to run Iraq, even days before the transfer of sovernity. I am sure Kerry is gravely disappointed in the success of the Bush "Vietnamization" plan.

	17-08-2004 23:59									#419
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Actually, Bush is pursuing "Vietnamization" as did Nixon 30 years ago. Kerry kept calling for some sort of UN High Commissioner to run Iraq, even days before the transfer of sovernity. I am sure Kerry is gravely disappointed in the success of the Bush "Vietnamization" plan.

Uh, what success? Besides, what was the result of Nixon's "Vietnamization?" Our lackeys folded and our enemies won. Are you sure that's the sort of formula we should try to emulate?

	18-08-2004 00:52									#420
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Vietnam was an unwinnable war from day 1.

I doubt that the Iraqis want more troops. More troops initially wouldn't have been as bad as less, but I really don't think more troops is going to help much. It depends on if Kerry does a better job with the Iraqi economy, but I don't that he will.