17-08-2004 04:47									#361
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat but instead, I'm a volunteer for the Kerry campaign.

Isnt there a technical term for southerners supporting yankees?

	17-08-2004 04:51									#362
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Kerry basically set up a trap for Bush Team, and it's not looking too good now. He said on the DNC, that he wants to keep the race with good spirits and without throwing the mud. The next thing you know, Bush Team throws mud. That was a trap damn it, easy trap. By this Kerry Team already gained higher moral grounds by default. And this message was integrated to another bigger message, that he wants to act as a unifier, not devider. Obviously indicating that his opponent would be the devider. Now, when you throw mud at him, you will make his point, even when it wouldn't be a fact. It makes you look like the devider rather than the unifier, and being the unifier is a lot better image to give when the voting starts.

Now, that isn't the worst part of the trap. The trap is ever tightening. Now when you start with the mud, what are you going to do, when Kerry will obviously become more aggressive towards the end of the race? He will attack more and more the presidents issues and his history in the job. He will become more clear about what the mistakes made are, he will judge them more and more. Now, when you throw the mud at the beginning, what can you do when they play hardball? Keep throwing the mud? You basically ran out of options in the beginning because you wasted all the bullets, and it makes you look weak and unable to counter it even harder.

That's how I see it, they set up a trap and they walked in it and will be tighter in the trap as the weeks go on. UNLESS they realize it and counter it early enough.

	17-08-2004 05:04									#363
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quote: Isnt there a technical term for southerners supporting yankees?

Carpetbagger or somesuch?

Why not support one of your own boys?

	17-08-2004 06:52									#364
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actually...pekka might be right... here. they are wastign so much time attackign this vietnam bullshti that they arent even talking about what vision kerry has. we already have seen bush's vision and it sucks.

	17-08-2004 13:45									#365
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MtG, citing the deficit as somehow being something that Kerry would fix by fiscal restraint, think back to the mid 90s. The balanced budget was forced on a reluctant Clinton by a Republican Congress lead by Newt Gingrich. Kerry has proposed so much new spending that even a Bush supporter might gag. Kerry has also promised to cut taxes on the middle class and cut the deficit while raising taxes on the upper middle class, the people who own small businesses and provide the bulk of jobs in the US. In order to fund all this new spending while cutting taxes on the middle class and while reducing the deficit, he would have to tax the upper middle class into forced equality, taking 95% of what they earn over $200k. That cannot be good for the economy. It seems, rather, a sure formula for a depression.

	17-08-2004 16:28									#366
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withdrawn

	17-08-2004 17:10									#367
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MRT144, of course I'm right. THey should attack his issues now, and when Kerry becomes more aggresive towards the end attackign Bush's issues more and more, then they could attack his persona more. NOw, they have already wasted their bullets and will look weak when Kerry starts playing hard too. They have no reserves left, which means they have to pull up quickly scandals or any other 'wow look at this, did you know this!' type of BS information about Kerry, but it's a sign of breaking point of their own campagn. They are using their weight TOO early.

	17-08-2004 17:14									#368
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 actually...pekka might be right... here. they are wastign so much time attackign this vietnam bullshti that they arent even talking about what vision kerry has. we already have seen bush's vision and it sucks.

Kerry has vision?

	17-08-2004 17:19									#369
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Yeah, and if you wouldn't be a hater you'd know what it is .

	17-08-2004 18:45									#370
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Why is the Bush team responsible for what the Swift boat veterans group are saying? I seem to recall the denials from Dems when Moore came out with F911. Point of the matter is Bush and Co. have said they have not endorsed SBVAK, unlike Dems who gave credentials and legitamcy to Moore by giving him honored status at their convention.

	17-08-2004 18:48									#371
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quote: So wait, it would be intelligent to vote for a man he despises, who carries out policies he finds loathsome, becuase?

An intelligent person would judge both candidates independently based on their behavior and policies. Anyone who will vote for "anyone other than Bush" is not doing this.

If you can't stand either of them, don't vote for either of them.

quote: Bush's utter and complete incompetence vis a vi post Saddam Iraq is more than enough to revoke any mandate he ever had.

If Bush were completely incompetent we would've had a civil war on our hands a long time ago.

	17-08-2004 18:54									#372
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BTW, at all of you turning to Pekka for analysis of the American presidential election...

	17-08-2004 18:55									#373
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten An intelligent person would judge both candidates independently based on their behavior and policies. Anyone who will vote for "anyone other than Bush" is not doing this.

I have judged Bush utterly unacceptable. I find nothing objectionable in Kerry's legislative record. Hence, Bush <<< Kerry

quote: If Bush were completely incompetent we would've had a civil war on our hands a long time ago.

Only if you assume Bush is the ONLY actor when it comes to Iraq. If he were, most certainly things would be worse. But others do have a hand in Iraq-they, not this admin. of errors, have prevented an even bigger mess.

	17-08-2004 18:56									#374
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten BTW, at all of you turning to Pekka for analysis of the American presidential election...

Well, then you should be ashamed his answers are more coherent than yours

	17-08-2004 19:05									#375
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quote: I have judged Bush utterly unacceptable. I find nothing objectionable in Kerry's legislative record. Hence, Bush <<< Kerry

That's fine. You've looked at Kerry's legislative record (or claimed to, at least) and find it to be acceptable to you. I may think you're deluded, but at least you've made a judgement based on the facts.

MtG, on the other hand, has just dismissed Kerry's legislative record as inconsequential. I can only imagine that this is because he finds Kerry's legislative record lacking (as any intelligent person would) and therefore can't place any importance on said record, lest he be forced to re-examine his "anyone but Bush" views. I have a problem with intellectual dishonesty like this. If you want to vote for anyone other than Bush, fine. Go right ahead, but don't play at objectivity and make specious claims like "Kerry's legislative record is irrelevant". Just admit to being a partisan hack and be done with it.

quote: Only if you assume Bush is the ONLY actor when it comes to Iraq. If he were, most certainly things would be worse. But others do have a hand in Iraq-they, not this admin. of errors, have prevented an even bigger mess.

That's a BAM if I've ever heard one...

	17-08-2004 19:07									#376
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WEll I think no one has turned into my analysis. MRT144 is the only one who agreed that Bush Team should use another strategy attacking Kerry.

And as far as analysis goes, that's about all I claimed. I took no sides. I think they both suck. If you disagree with me, then what part about that you disagree?

	17-08-2004 19:10									#377
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the big problem I see is, that he has revelaled his cards already, and brought nothing new to the table. Kerry will bring something at the end though. So how can he meet that, when he's got nothing new under teh sun? He will go on about security issues, about continuing to make the world more free, where as Kerry doesn't disagree, he just wants to do it better. Now, Kerry has the initiative and he has had that for some time now. Republican National Convention si absolutely essential to take the initiative back. If the Team is unable to do that decisively, mark my words, he loses these elections. If he delivers in that speech, he will make a tigh lead over KErry, and with succesful drum beating at the end, that can carry him to the second term.

	17-08-2004 19:15									#378
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quote: If you disagree with me, then what part about that you disagree?

1. The Bush team isn't sponsoring the SwiftVets, so I fail to see how you can criticize the Bushies for a strategy they aren't actually using.

2. I fail to see how the SwiftVets charges are mudslinging. They're all veterans of the same unit as Kerry. They've brought up charges they aren't outlandish, one of which has already proven true. If questions about Kerry's service record in Vietnam (the centerpiece of his campaign) can't be raised by his former comrades (used by Kerry himself in his political ads), then who exactly can question Kerry without it being considered "mudslinging"?

	17-08-2004 19:18									#379
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Yeah but those vets are indirectly in the elections, just like michael moore's F911.

They are both for 'anyone but him'. And the talks about this election is heavily concentrated on that. The Teams should be able to control the issues, because if they can't they're just like a ship in storm, and it's anyones game.

It's no excuse. He should be able to strongly come up with his own issues, to make the distraction to something else.

	17-08-2004 19:21									#380
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And if you say they are not slinging mud, visit his website. I think you find it a hater site, and there's plenty of kaka throwing. It wouldn't be so bad, but it's so huge, the contrast, between the candidates websites. You can see some fundamental differencies in them, and since Kerry did set up a trap in his DNC speech, I think they totally ate it.

	17-08-2004 19:21									#381
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Why would Bush bother doing anything whilst Kerry is fighting off attacks from his own fellow veterans? Best to wait it out and then hit Kerry when he's weak. Save your money and political capital for the coup de grace...

	17-08-2004 19:24									#382
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So Bush is not attacking?

Do you not see the point, that when they attack Kerry, it is indirect attack against Bush as well. Bush takes damage too from this. And go visit his website so you see the other attacks, that ARE the works of his team. Face it, Kerry's strategists are totally dominating right now, and will dominate to the end unless they start countering it.

	17-08-2004 19:31									#383
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quote: So Bush is not attacking?

Not really. Cheney took a couple shots at Kerry last week, but the Bush campaign has yet to begin in earnest. Lots of people are wondering what they're waiting for, actually.

quote: Do you not see the point, that when they attack Kerry, it is indirect attack against Bush as well. Bush takes damage too from this.

How does this hurt Bush, exactly?

	17-08-2004 19:32									#384
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Yeah but those vets are indirectly in the elections, just like michael moore's F911.

Yes I agree

quote: They are both for 'anyone but him'. And the talks about this election is heavily concentrated on that. The Teams should be able to control the issues, because if they can't they're just like a ship in storm, and it's anyones game.

Couldn't disagree more as this represents the very infringement on free speach that everyone is so paranoid about. Restriction of political speach.

quote: It's no excuse. He should be able to strongly come up with his own issues, to make the distraction to something else.

Point is the party's in question have acted differently faced with partisan hackmanship. In the Dem case they embraced Moore thus effectively endorsing his view. In the SBVAK the Repubs have allowed the ideas to be promulagated through the community of ideas without taking an endorsement stand.

	17-08-2004 19:36									#385
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Drake, Right, I would agree that theiur campagn hasn't really started yet. They might start it from their own convention I guess.

	17-08-2004 19:42									#386
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Of course they are waiting for their convention... That's been their game plan all along. I only hope they actually deliver on showing what they hope to accomplish in a second term, and how they plan on doing it. Then the campaign will begin for real.

I seriously doubt the convention will be a "sling mud at Kerry" event... and I seriously doubt they are going to highlight the vets who are attacking Kerry... Unlike the Dems putting Moore on center stage...

	17-08-2004 19:44									#387
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But since they start this late, if they fail to deliver in their convention, it will be very bad for their campagn and I think they will not success.

	17-08-2004 19:54									#388
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Point is the party's in question have acted differently faced with partisan hackmanship. In the Dem case they embraced Moore thus effectively endorsing his view. In the SBVAK the Repubs have allowed the ideas to be promulagated through the community of ideas without taking an endorsement stand.

Or the Republicans have let their attack dogs work without either embracing or distancing themselves, so they can sit and talk out of both sides of their face about "negativity" and such.

(and yes, the Dems have done it too.)

	17-08-2004 19:58									#389
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Do you not see the point, that when they attack Kerry, it is indirect attack against Bush as well. Bush takes damage too from this. How does this hurt Bush, exactly?

"I spent the war in Vietnam defending the shores of Texas against the Free Mexican Air Force, at least when I showed up. That was very important for our nation's security, and daddy's connections didn't really help me a whole lot. Once he greased the skids, it was all up to me." - George W. Bush on his war record.

The mere fact that an incumbent has to attack a challenger isn't good news for the incumbent.

	17-08-2004 20:00									#390
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At least Bush has opened up his military records. Why won't Kerry do the same?