18-08-2004 05:06									#451
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quote: Originally posted by Elok Oh, Bush's credibility problems aren't limited to Iraq. I don't believe a word Bush says on anything. Come to think of it, I don't think Bush believes a word Bush says on anything. He's the kind of guy who will fight to the end for his ideals, then figure out what exactly his ideals are later, when he has a spare moment. Anyway, a column in today's Washington Post says MoveOn.org already pulled out the big guns in response. They have a commercial that quotes John McCain calling on Bush to condemn the Swift Boaters. McCain's War Hero muscle should counteract this nicely. My computer doesn't have sound, Ned; what's your clip saying?

It has Kerry's public statements on programs such as Meet the Press from 1990 thru to the present day on Iraq. You can see that he flip-flopped on the first Iraq war as well. But he began taking an extremely hardline stand against Saddam in 1997. In '98, he called for the use of ground troops to overthrow him - agreeing that he was way out in front of Clinton on this. He continue to bang the war drums through 1992, even agreeing with Bush that we had the right to act unilaterally if the UN would not vote for war.

He began to change his tune when Dean took the lead in Iowa and New Hampshire. Now he is beginning to flop back to his original hardline stand with his statement that he would have voted for the war even knowing what we know today about the WMDs.

	18-08-2004 05:12									#452
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Great, MtG. Kerry gets elected and we go to war against an ally in order to fend off an oil depression. My God, the lunacy is of Kerry's position is appalling.

	18-08-2004 06:10									#453
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Nice try Ned, but your trolling isn't up to it's usual. Unless you think I'm John Kerry?

The Saudis are as much an "ally" of the US as was the USSR in WW2 - if, when, and only to the extent it suits their goals, which sure as hell aren't our goals.

	18-08-2004 06:35									#454
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quote: Originally posted by Ned My God, the lunacy is of Kerry's position is appalling.

That statement is unfair to lunatics everywhere.

	18-08-2004 06:53									#455
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Lincoln,

Come on. You did something to that picture. His face is hardly sunkin.

	18-08-2004 18:17									#456
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quote: Of course, they're all just apolitical, scrupulously honest guys who've been saying the same thing consistently since the events took place. They're not partisan, helped and financially promoted by partisan operatives, and nothing they say now contradicts what they said or conspicuously failed to bother saying at the time.

You're going to have a hell of a time convincing me that the majority of the members of Kerry's unit and all of his commanding officers are all partisan hacks making up things to take Kerry down, especially now that one of their claims has been proven true. That's inplausible at best and , at worst, insulting to veterans with as much right to respect for their service as Kerry.

	18-08-2004 18:29									#457
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten You're going to have a hell of a time convincing me that the majority of the members of Kerry's unit and all of his commanding officers are all partisan hacks making up things to take Kerry down, especially now that one of their claims has been proven true. That's inplausible at best and , at worst, insulting to veterans with as much right to respect for their service as Kerry.

Except of course you read what those superiors wrote in giving him his commendations and you think to yourself: why the hell have they changed their stories so dramatically in just the last few months?
Then you listen to their gripe, and 100% of them are simply angry at Kerry as a war protestor back in 1970-71. When they served with Kerry, they have no records of any bad words, and if anything from his superiors we get glowing reports. 30+ years later you hear them *****ing about Kerry as anti-war leader.

So its pretty easy to see where these guys are coming from.

	18-08-2004 18:30									#458
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MtG has an wall up called "He's not Bush" blocking any and all atempts at cricising Kerry, Drake.

	18-08-2004 18:33									#459
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Oh, I know. Still feel like going through the motions, though. Lately, Poly has turned into an excellent way to numb my mind in preperation for bed.

	18-08-2004 18:48									#460
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Oh, I know. Still feel like going through the motions, though. Lately, Poly has turned into an excellent way to numb my mind in preperation for bed.

I thought that was done automatically- some cut and paste function built in?

	18-08-2004 18:49									#461
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc MtG has an wall up called "He's not Bush" blocking any and all atempts at cricising Kerry, Drake.

Maybe you understand the "He's NOt Bush" wall and how it works- see, he does not give a rats ass what you guys have to say about Kerry, becuase there is nothing about him you could say that would have him vote for Bush, and since he knows minor candidates don't have a chance in hell, he will vote for the only winnable alternative.

Its not hard to understand, now is it?

	18-08-2004 18:53									#462
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Except of course you read what those superiors wrote in giving him his commendations and you think to yourself: why the hell have they changed their stories so dramatically in just the last few months? Then you listen to their gripe, and 100% of them are simply angry at Kerry as a war protestor back in 1970-71. When they served with Kerry, they have no records of any bad words, and if anything from his superiors we get glowing reports. 30+ years later you hear them *****ing about Kerry as anti-war leader. So its pretty easy to see where these guys are coming from.

You obviously are not cognizant or worse yet to refuse to acknowledge the possibility of the 'nice boss' syndrome. Wherein poor performers are often given good reviews b/c of either grade inflation or an attempt to get rid of troublesome employees by getting them transfered or in this case discharged.

	18-08-2004 18:58									#463
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Maybe you understand the "He's NOt Bush" wall and how it works-

I do. I brought it up, remember? I was just explaining that to Drake in an effort to allow him to avoid a fruitless endeavor. Here's a cookie for attempting to be smart though.

	18-08-2004 19:10									#464
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quote: Here's a cookie for attempting to be smart though.

Isn't he such a brave little guy? Never gives up, even when attempting the impossible...

	18-08-2004 19:11									#465
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe You obviously are not cognizant or worse yet to refuse to acknowledge the possibility of the 'nice boss' syndrome. Wherein poor performers are often given good reviews b/c of either grade inflation or an attempt to get rid of troublesome employees by getting them transfered or in this case discharged.

Which would be a fine explination, except they recommended him for very presigious awards (silver stars are not given away), and if they had any honor as officers they would not allow someone they thought undeserving get such an award.

So either they were gutless honorless men back then, or johnny-come lately bitter old men today.

	18-08-2004 19:14									#466
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc I do. I brought it up, remember? I was just explaining that to Drake in an effort to allow him to avoid a fruitless endeavor. Here's a cookie for attempting to be smart though.

What? you write more then three lines of text at any time? That is simply not done! I mean, that verges on posting a coherent arguement and that simply is not the DD way, now is it?

quote: Isn't he such a brave little guy? Never gives up, even when attempting the impossible...

I know, reasoning with you guys is trully impossible- but I have faith in your intelligence (lord knows why) and that eventually you might see the light.

	18-08-2004 19:19									#467
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Such spunk...

	18-08-2004 19:30									#468
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten Such spunk...

I know.

	18-08-2004 19:36									#469
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quote: The ''band of brothers'' was organized by Kerry, according to this book. It tells of a 2003 telephone call to Adm. Roy Hoffmann, who commanded swift boats in Vietnam, telling him he was running for president. Hoffmann, mistakenly thinking it was former Sen. Bob Kerrey, ''responded enthusiastically.'' Once the admiral realized it was John Kerry, ''he declined to give Kerry his support.''

http://www.suntimes.com/output/nova...dt-novak09.html



Bob Kerrey

John Kerry

	18-08-2004 20:26									#470
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And the Sun Times is the Liberal paper in town

	18-08-2004 21:57									#471
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Which would be a fine explination, except they recommended him for very presigious awards (silver stars are not given away), and if they had any honor as officers they would not allow someone they thought undeserving get such an award. So either they were gutless honorless men back then, or johnny-come lately bitter old men today.

Which does come to the very crux of why so many conservatives have some hesitation in agreeing wholeheartedly. There is an sense that medals in the vietnam era were handed out in a more cavalier fashion than past generations yet it is not spoken of for fear of insulting the contributions of those who served in that or for that matter previous generations.

As to your assertion of them being gutless honorless men you therefor condemn the entire generation. Are you willing to do so?

	18-08-2004 21:59									#472
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"As to your assertion of them being gutless honorless men you therefor condemn the entire generation. Are you willing to do so?"

False. False assumption, and not true conclusion.

	18-08-2004 22:00									#473
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Which does come to the very crux of why so many conservatives have some hesitation in agreeing wholeheartedly. There is an sense that medals in the vietnam era were handed out in a more cavalier fashion than past generations yet it is not spoken of for fear of insulting the contributions of those who served in that or for that matter previous generations. As to your assertion of them being gutless honorless men you therefor condemn the entire generation. Are you willing to do so?

nice strawmen.

	18-08-2004 22:20									#474
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: Of course, they're all just apolitical, scrupulously honest guys who've been saying the same thing consistently since the events took place. They're not partisan, helped and financially promoted by partisan operatives, and nothing they say now contradicts what they said or conspicuously failed to bother saying at the time. You're going to have a hell of a time convincing me that the majority of the members of Kerry's unit and all of his commanding officers are all partisan hacks making up things to take Kerry down, especially now that one of their claims has been proven true.

I guess "Kerry's unit" must not have had more than 3 or 4 boats, then, because otherwise, they were sure shorthanded for this group to be a "majority."

quote: That's inplausible at best and

The vast majority of the brown water Navy as a whole is pretty apolitical - at least in the high-profile public sense, just like most veterans. There are at least a few thousand brown water Navy vets, and a few million Vietnam vets alone, not counting Korea, WW2, and later wars.

These guys are a "majority" of the unit(s) politically vocal members, but that doesn't mean much. At least one is one of the guys with his McCain is a Russkie-gook spy shtick, another is the one who wrote something about both John and Teresa Kerry being jews, etc. They all have a right to their opinions, and to their own beliefs.

The relevant (non) issue is whether their opinions and statements now have any particular credibility, in light of their totally different tune before Kerry became noticeable in VVAW.

Kerry may or may not be a cynical hack politician who would whore his own mother for political gain, but I don't really give a fair damn, because Bush is an even bigger flip-flopper, Bush has ****ed up repeatedly in the war on terror, Bush is running record deficits (and if you think it's bad now, let's see what happens if the Fed keeps cranking up interest rates) and the largest national debt and trade deficits in history. All while violating his oath of office and wiping his ass with the Constitution.

So too bad, Kerry is far and away the better alternative between Bush and Kerry, which is what we've got to pick from in the real world of electable choices.

quote: at worst, insulting to veterans with as much right to respect for their service as Kerry.

Coming from a non-vet to a vet, that's ****ing laughable. It wouldn't matter to me if they were current card-carrying members of the Klan or the American Communist Party, their service then stands on it's own, and their statements or actions now stand on their own.

	18-08-2004 22:22									#475
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MtG, just kill this thread, it's going nowhere.

	18-08-2004 22:28									#476
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe You obviously are not cognizant or worse yet to refuse to acknowledge the possibility of the 'nice boss' syndrome. Wherein poor performers are often given good reviews b/c of either grade inflation or an attempt to get rid of troublesome employees by getting them transfered or in this case discharged.

Unfortunately, that's not a real plausible scenario. A bucketfull of decorations for valor wouldn't get Kerry or anyone else sent anywhere. And it took three PH awards to get someone out, so how would the "nice boss" assume Kerry would get any?

If Kerry was dangerous on the boats or a ****up, you wouldn't take months and bogus citations to deal with it - it would be easy to just make him some sort of supply or administrative officer, or just flat-ass transfer him, if there was any vaguely justifiable basis for doing so.

Given a lack of contemporaneous evidence of any nature, all you can do is guess that this might be so in order to manufacture a trace of credibility for these gents.

	18-08-2004 22:29									#477
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker MtG, just kill this thread, it's going nowhere.

It's getting close to the magic 500.

	18-08-2004 22:30									#478
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23 more to go after this one.

(don't take that as a hint to +1 it, but still... it doesn't have much life left in it. )

	18-08-2004 22:31									#479
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In the service of the greater good, one more post...

come on everybody

	18-08-2004 22:32									#480
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In this case, the ends (killing this thread) justify the means (sadly only a +0)