08-08-2004 23:41									#61
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Well, even if it's done better, it's not an innovation.

	09-08-2004 00:03									#62
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Yeah, Apoc, the grapes are sour anyways.

	09-08-2004 01:32									#63
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Damn, I saw the video, it looks incredible. The boasting system, the reactions of townspeople, everything looks great.

I seriously hope to hell the fundamentals are in order. If they are, this may very well be one of the best RPGs ever. Certainly the best for any console.

	09-08-2004 02:13									#64
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What's making me suspicious about this game is that I haven't heard a peep about the story. Not a word about the main quest, if there is any... You will have fed ex missions. And you will have to beat the crap out of small time crooks or, alternatively, become a small time crook yourself. But not a word about the main quest... as if it were an afterthought. Maybe it will a RPG about nothing.

	09-08-2004 02:32									#65
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Well, I've heard that it will have a main storyline. I pretty sure there was some beef to it. Including having to go to jail for a while (where you'd do a lot of aging and become pale and stuff).

	09-08-2004 02:43									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Including having to go to jail for a while (where you'd do a lot of aging and become pale and stuff).

Again with the gimmicks. That's all they care to talk about. But not a word about the story. Compared to the story, you'll have to admit that your character's appearance is pretty secondary. Makes me wonder.... I'm sure there's a story (I was joking earlier), but either they want to keep it secret, or they're not working that hard on it, or they worked mainly on the bells and whistles up until now.

	09-08-2004 03:08									#67
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Yeah, even for console games, most people remember the story best. Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy VII and Xenogears aren't touted for the good gameplay, but for the story.

	09-08-2004 03:34									#68
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I never played japanese RPG's: they're to cutesy and to linear for my taste. But IMO, the story is an integral part of an RPG's gameplay.

	09-08-2004 03:38									#69
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Yeah...again, the graphics of Fable little surprisingly cutesy and animeish.

	09-08-2004 04:14									#70
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Story? You want a story read a book. Games should be about what you can do in them. The problem with Final Fantasy is that it's all story, and no playing around. I tried to work my way through FF IX, and I got tired of the twenty minutes breaks where you'd have to deal with cutscenes and endless conversations about some bizzare plot. Games that focus on stories before the all else end up denying you the ability to make choices. You find yourself watching a character worm his way through a plot while you tell him and his buddies what to do during fights and what equipment to wear.

The idea behind real RPGs is that the story is determined by you. Morrowind tried to pull this off, and did an all right job, but certainly wasn't perfect. Games like Planescape do an all right job, but in the long run the story hijacks your ability to do what you want in the game. Both console and PC RPGs lack the ability to just go places that a P&P RPG offers.

My hope, although there's no reason to believe this will be the case, is that Fable will put the story in the back seat. If you want to go ahead and do your own thing, you should be able to.

I can't fathom why you guys keep lambasting gimmicks. Gimmicks are just another word for inventiveness and imagination. Was the cinematography in Citizin Kane a gimmick? Is stram of consciousness literature a gimmick? Were scenarios in Civ 2 a gimmick, and wasn't Babbage's mechanical computer a gimmick? Yes, and that's what made them so cool.

Now, after the game comes out, if it turns out to suck, by all means I'll be with you guys in saying it's a bunch of gimmicks tied together with string. But until you see the game you shouldn't be talking about how lame it is. You might actually want to check out some of the information about it, look at the videos that have been released, and find out what you can.

	09-08-2004 04:21									#71
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in this case I have to agree with Felch.

Gameplay is more important than story. It's simple. Either the game is fun to play or its not.

Now where I might disagree is with the gimmick.The gimmicks seem cool, but they don't indicate whether the gameplay is actually fun. So if they fall into place and the game flows smoothly and is fun to play, then it works. I'll play it (when it comes out on PC )

Pretty much the only way to tell is to actually play the game- or a demo.

	09-08-2004 04:22									#72
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You could do a lot of what you wanted in Placescape and it had a great story. Same with Fallout.

RPGs need to make people want to do things besides get random item for random person. This was a serious problem in Morrowind in that honestly, there wasn't much point in going some where to get some reward that you didn't need.

And scenarios in Civ 2 were far from a gimmick. They are a major part of the gameplay.

	09-08-2004 06:43									#73
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And what's to say that how your character develops in Fable isn't integral to the gameplay? In fact, by everything I've read, it is. The real innovation in Fable, if everything turns out as promised, is that the gimmicks will matter in the game. According to the descriptions and the video I saw, how your character acts in relation to the people around him will impact the game world in a realistic way.

The boasting system is one "gimmick" I think is really neat. Before performing quests, your character is able to make boasts - things like doing the quest without taking damage, without armor, without weapons, or in the example shown in the video, without losing any of the merchants you're supposed to be escorting. The boasts aren't necessary, but they give your character the ability to earn greater renown throughout the game world, and a higher reward for the quest. Other heroes travelling the world though may make boasts that you're unwilling to make. In that case they will be more admired than you, although the reverse can also be true.

Fallout (I only played the second) was cool because the story was there, but it wasn't determining where you went. Certain isolated areas were locked away at the start, but by and large you could travel anywhere and completely ignore the story if you chose to. In fact a lot of the quests had pretty much nothing to do with the story and tended to be either exterminations or varients on the fed-ex quests that you so despise. Planescape I never got to finish because I was playing my friend's copy, and one of his discs was scratched.

I have faith that this game won't be a complete piece of crap. I wonder why so many of you are so damn hard-bitten and cynical about games. If it's not perfect, it's not perfect. It's made by people, so it naturally won't be perfect. But it does sound interesting, and it does sound like a step in the right direction for console RPGs. I wish you guys could for once just see it as that. A heroic effort, that hasn't been released yet (and therefore can't be judged on things like gameplay and story), and seems so far to be full of really good ideas about how an RPG should work.

	09-08-2004 06:44									#74
	Inflate your Upload Space

Here's a screen shot - taken from one of the videos - of the boasting circle.

Attachment: boast.jpg
This has been downloaded 43 time(s).

	09-08-2004 06:50									#75
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Felch Story? You want a story read a book. Games should be about what you can do in them. The problem with Final Fantasy is that it's all story, and no playing around. I tried to work my way through FF IX, and I got tired of the twenty minutes breaks where you'd have to deal with cutscenes and endless conversations about some bizzare plot. Games that focus on stories before the all else end up denying you the ability to make choices. You find yourself watching a character worm his way through a plot while you tell him and his buddies what to do during fights and what equipment to wear.

That's why I don't like japanese RPG's: they're too linear.

quote: The idea behind real RPGs is that the story is determined by you. Morrowind tried to pull this off, and did an all right job, but certainly wasn't perfect. Games like Planescape do an all right job, but in the long run the story hijacks your ability to do what you want in the game. Both console and PC RPGs lack the ability to just go places that a P&P RPG offers.

All these games have a story. Some games have highly scripted, linear, barely interactive stories (Final Fantasy), others have more or less open-ended stories (Morrowind, KOTOR). And I totally agree with you: open-ended stories are better.

quote: I can't fathom why you guys keep lambasting gimmicks. Gimmicks are just another word for inventiveness and imagination. Was the cinematography in Citizin Kane a gimmick? Is stram of consciousness literature a gimmick? Were scenarios in Civ 2 a gimmick, and wasn't Babbage's mechanical computer a gimmick? Yes, and that's what made them so cool.

Gimmick: a trick or device, esp. to attract attention, or publicity. The things you mentionned are clearly not gimmicks, they are innovations. For instance, Molyneux puts a lot of emphasis on the changes in your character's appearance: scars, color of skin, muscles... It's an interesting touch, but it's a gimmick nonetheless.

quote: Now, after the game comes out, if it turns out to suck, by all means I'll be with you guys in saying it's a bunch of gimmicks tied together with string. But until you see the game you shouldn't be talking about how lame it is. You might actually want to check out some of the information about it, look at the videos that have been released, and find out what you can.

I was excited for a while, then I read some examples of gameplay, some examples of missions you have to complete. One was a fed ex mission. The other one was spying on a cheating husband. And another one was taking care of crooks. I don't know about you, but I expected something a little more epic... I'll wait and see. If it gets good reviews, i'll rent it, and if I like it, I'll buy it.

	09-08-2004 07:07									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Felch The boasting system is one "gimmick" I think is really neat. Before performing quests, your character is able to make boasts - things like doing the quest without taking damage, without armor, without weapons, or in the example shown in the video, without losing any of the merchants you're supposed to be escorting. The boasts aren't necessary, but they give your character the ability to earn greater renown throughout the game world, and a higher reward for the quest. Other heroes travelling the world though may make boasts that you're unwilling to make. In that case they will be more admired than you, although the reverse can also be true.

How is that new at all? In escort missions if a wide variety of genres you get better rewards for keeping things alive. Heck in Morrowind you'd get a larger reward in quests for not using a potion or scroll some times. I'm really surprised they are making a deal about this. I mean, all it means if that you have to do extra work to do things already present in other games.

quote: Originally posted by Felch Fallout (I only played the second) was cool because the story was there, but it wasn't determining where you went. Certain isolated areas were locked away at the start, but by and large you could travel anywhere and completely ignore the story if you chose to. In fact a lot of the quests had pretty much nothing to do with the story and tended to be either exterminations or varients on the fed-ex quests that you so despise. Planescape I never got to finish because I was playing my friend's copy, and one of his discs was scratched.

Fallout wasn't full of fed ex ones though. And the fed ex ones that were in were rather varied and unique, which was nice. And there were twists to them...like finding the kid in Modoc and then having to forge a relationship between the two groups there.

quote: Originally posted by Felch I have faith that this game won't be a complete piece of crap. I wonder why so many of you are so damn hard-bitten and cynical about games. If it's not perfect, it's not perfect. It's made by people, so it naturally won't be perfect. But it does sound interesting, and it does sound like a step in the right direction for console RPGs. I wish you guys could for once just see it as that. A heroic effort, that hasn't been released yet (and therefore can't be judged on things like gameplay and story), and seems so far to be full of really good ideas about how an RPG should work.

I don't think it will be a piece of crap. It will probably be a very good game for the Xbox. I just don't see why people are viewing it as one of the greatest RPGs of all time.

	09-08-2004 07:36									#77
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spoiler(highlight to read): From snippets of what I've picked up at the official boards, I'm pretty sure there is a main story. When you are a child you home is burned, your dog is nailed to the door, and your parents are missing. From what I picked up I think there is a part in the game where you find out who did this and deal with them as you want. (I think, people are so vague on those boards) I'm pretty sure your parents play an important role in the story.

A cool site, fun stuff to do, or stuff.

	09-08-2004 07:38									#78
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It might be a good game, then it might not.

I'm not cynical like some people appear to be. I have learned to use the wait and see tactic. I'm tired of buying bad games.

My main problem with this game is it's on the X-box. Therefore no demo. I won't consider buyuing this game until I can play it first.

	09-08-2004 07:48									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Gamecube64 spoiler(highlight to read): I'm pretty sure your parents play an important role in the story. A cool site, fun stuff to do, or stuff.

spoiler(highlight to read): Damn it. Don't they realize some people don't have good relationships with their parents?

	09-08-2004 08:07									#80
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spoiler(highlight to read): The basic story revolves around a twelve-year-old boy who returns home to find his father murdered and his mother kidnapped.

Ok, but this is from an interview in 2003 so it might be wrong.

	09-08-2004 08:09									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Unlike MOO3, however, Molnieux isn't the type of designer who is going to be 'rushed' by the publisher. He's got a big enough name to say sod off. Black and White may not have been that great of a game, but it didn't seem rushed in anyway.

Sid Meier has a big name, and C3 was rushed.

	09-08-2004 08:18									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Gamecube64 spoiler(highlight to read): The basic story revolves around a twelve-year-old boy who returns home to find his father murdered and his mother kidnapped. Ok, but this is from an interview in 2003 so it might be wrong.

spoiler(highlight to read): Wow...all the kid's problems are solved in the very beginning. Why am I compelled to do anything now?

	09-08-2004 08:20									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Coochiewalker Sid Meier has a big name, and C3 was rushed.

I hate to say it, but I have to agree with Coochiewalker here.

	09-08-2004 08:26									#84
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I've said it before and I'll say it again. Brian Reynolds = quality and Sid Meier = suck.

	09-08-2004 08:29									#85
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Sid was busy with Dinos!/Sim Golf while Civ3 was being made. Soren did Civ3.

	09-08-2004 09:03									#86
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quote: I wonder why so many of you are so damn hard-bitten and cynical about games.

Apoc hates anything on consoles. Anything on PC he hypes to no end. I'm sure you've seen that on these forums.

quote: For instance, Molyneux puts a lot of emphasis on the changes in your character's appearance: scars, color of skin, muscles... It's an interesting touch, but it's a gimmick nonetheless.

Actually it is something which increases immersiveness. That's like saying that better graphics is really a gimmick because it is a device to attract attention.

quote: How is that new at all?

Because you can try to call your ultra effect. You don't just get extra points or extra gold, but have to do exactly what you boasted to get the extras. Definetly increases the fun factor.

quote: I just don't see why people are viewing it as one of the greatest RPGs of all time.

Because it takes immersiveness in an RPG to an entirely different level.

quote: some examples of missions you have to complete. One was a fed ex mission. The other one was spying on a cheating husband. And another one was taking care of crooks. I don't know about you, but I expected something a little more epic

So quests which are found in just about every RPG means Fable isn't as epic as the others?

	09-08-2004 09:13									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I wonder why so many of you are so damn hard-bitten and cynical about games. Apoc hates anything on consoles. Anything on PC he hypes to no end. I'm sure you've seen that on these forums.

Imran, you know me. I hate CTP too

And I do actually like Halo somewhat. And Chrono Trigger and Final Fantasy. And F-Zero was pretty fun for a while too.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: For instance, Molyneux puts a lot of emphasis on the changes in your character's appearance: scars, color of skin, muscles... It's an interesting touch, but it's a gimmick nonetheless. Actually it is something which increases immersiveness. That's like saying that better graphics is really a gimmick because it is a device to attract attention.

I'll agree that all of this is very cool. At the very least you don't have to worry about making your character look a certain way through skins or something else.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: How is that new at all? Because you can try to call your ultra effect. You don't just get extra points or extra gold, but have to do exactly what you boasted to get the extras. Definetly increases the fun factor.

I really don't see how that does it. I have to spend *extra* time to say I'm going to do something, that unless this game is harder than previous console RPGs, I'm not sure I'd be able to do. This *might* be good as long as none of them are a sure thing. If one of the boasts are, then I have a feeling it will be quite meh and end up not much different than reputation in Arcanum or Fallout. Is there any penalty for NOT completely the boast aside from some basic view of your character from a populace?

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I just don't see why people are viewing it as one of the greatest RPGs of all time. Because it takes immersiveness in an RPG to an entirely different level.

But have they really shown that yet?

	09-08-2004 09:31									#88
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I think it's pretty obvious that much of the new ideas presented in this game are going to be pretty kickass.

What I'm worried about (I think someone touched on this already) is that the underlying combat and character building systems will be ok. Morrowind was completely ruined for me when I realized how completely irrelevant you're choices were when designing your character, because there are no caps on anything and you can learn everything.

The demo shows a character switching from melee to ranged to magic attacks. This is cool, but there better be a benefit to specializing in one of these three. A pure archer should be able to achieve a higher skill than a jack of all trades kind of character. Similarly a fighter should have higher strength than a mage. This wasn't the case in Morrowind.

Ideally I'd prefer something similar to the KOTOR or Neverwinter character system, where there are caps on things and race and class matter. If Fable can include this stuff, then even a mediocre storyline should make the game kickass.

	09-08-2004 09:35									#89
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quote: But have they really shown that yet?

Yes, they've shown it to me by the video Busta refered to.

quote: I really don't see how that does it.

Because you get extra gold from fulfilling your exact boast. And that's the thing, you have to pick what you are going to try to do to get the extra gold. If you accomplish something else which you hadn't boasted, then you get jack for it, unlike other RPGs which may give you more experience and gold for doing something which wasn't even your plan. The boast makes you actively seek a goal for reward and not just get it because you do your quest well.

quote: Sid Meier has a big name, and C3 was rushed.

As Apoc references, Sid was not really into the inner workings of Civ3. If it was rushed, it wasn't Sid's baby so it didn't matter so much to him.

	09-08-2004 09:36									#90
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Again, what ideas in the game are really that new? I'll admit some of them might be the next step in some areas if they are implimented well, but what is truly new?