10-08-2004 22:56									#121
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Space05us quote: Ok, then what's the point? We'll all enjoy it, and share our adventures with our fellow 'Polytubbies.

But we already do that with other games. That in itself is not a feature.

	10-08-2004 23:06									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Apoc seems to constantly be missing the point because of his irrational hatred for this game before it even comes out (and don't even try to deny it). quote: It's too much a caricature. The best atmosphere I've seen in a game in the last few years is 'Beyond Good and Evil' which had 'cartoony' graphics, so, sorry your hater arguments are shot down once again.

You're the first person I heard that BG&E had good atmosphere.

And not being able to tell a game might be bad before it's out...both you and me knew CTP was bad and said so beforehand. You're being hypocritical now.

	10-08-2004 23:07									#123
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: And we still haven't heard a peep about the main quests...

How much of Fallout's main quest did we know before playing it? Personally, I had little idea until I actually started playing. Same with Baldur's Gate. I'm sure the quest starts out as getting revenge for your dead family, but then takes a twist and you found 'Big Evil Thing' (TM), like normal.

quote: well it least he didnt say its racist or will make kids act out

No, that's your job

	10-08-2004 23:11									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui To make an analogy, it'd be like when Starcraft was first coming out and I was excited based on videos I saw and features I was told were going to be with the game; and Apoc standing there saying X had been done in Warcraft 2 and Y had been done in another game and Z had been done in Game 3, so Starcraft really wasn't that innovative and people who were saying that it could be the best RTS of all time had no basis for that. Oh, and the 'cartoony' graphics of Starcraft detracted from the atmosphere of the game so that was a minus as well.

That is not a good analogy. Blizzard said Starcraft would be good because of good multiplayer. They delivered on that. Thus if I had wanted to attack SC (which I didn't) I would pretty much have to attack the multiplayer segment otherwise it'd be a strawman. And I know that Fable can also be good because of the high customizability of the character, which I have conceded will be good if there is incentive to really play the character.

And Starcraft is a strategy game that did not run on immersion. And it's graphics aren't even really cartoony. The eyes are normal sized. People did not get Starcraft to imagine they were a character in the game. You don't need atmosphere in Starcraft, it's not an RPG. Unlike Fable.

	10-08-2004 23:17									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: And we still haven't heard a peep about the main quests... How much of Fallout's main quest did we know before playing it? Personally, I had little idea until I actually started playing. Same with Baldur's Gate. I'm sure the quest starts out as getting revenge for your dead family, but then takes a twist and you found 'Big Evil Thing' (TM), like normal. quote: well it least he didnt say its racist or will make kids act out No, that's your job

Well, I didn't even know about Fallout until it was out. With Baldurs Gate though, there was enough information available if you wanted it. Plus the excuse of Fallout II guys who were responsible for patches saying they were busy playing BG because of the story was a good indicator too. Dungeon Seige didn't run on the story, just combat. Same with TOEE. You'd think if they had a good story, they'd talk about it more. Since you've like to go cross genre in the arguement...we knew a lot about the SMAC (and SMACX) storyline before it was released

	10-08-2004 23:47									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse You're the first person I heard that BG&E had good atmosphere. .

I saw that, i thought you were talking about Baltimore Gas and Electric

	10-08-2004 23:48									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui [ quote: well it least he didnt say its racist or will make kids act out No, that's your job

No, no, ive been staying quiet on that

	11-08-2004 00:19									#128
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: You're the first person I heard that BG&E had good atmosphere.

Then you don't get around often. Read the reviews if you want some more proof. I can't think of a game with better atmosphere. They constructed an entire believable world with a great story and you just felt like you were there.

quote: not being able to tell a game might be bad before it's out

To Apoc, 'irrational hatred' of a game (which he has towards Fable) = not being able to tell a game may be bad. I guess it makes sense that Apoc can't tell the difference between rational and irrational slagging of a game. Rationality ain't one of his strong points.

quote: That is not a good analogy.

Of course it is. You say it isn't because it slaps you down like the tosser you are .

quote: Blizzard said Starcraft would be good because of good multiplayer.

That's nice, so your argument relies on Blizzard saying of Starcraft, "it'll be a good multiplayer game". I'm sorry, but they didn't talk about it like it was multiplayer only. The story and the different races (part of the story) where harped on. Basically it is the Half Life of RTS.

quote: And Starcraft is a strategy game that did not run on immersion. And it's graphics aren't even really cartoony. The eyes are normal sized. People did not get Starcraft to imagine they were a character in the game. You don't need atmosphere in Starcraft, it's not an RPG. Unlike Fable.

Uh huh, Starcraft and other RTS don't want to immerse players in the game. That's why the HUD looked exactly the same whenever you played each race... oh wait. Blizzard's RTSs are well known for their immersion quality. And I didn't realize that if eyes are normal that means things aren't 'cartoony' ( again).

Besides, a game like Baldur's Gate I had absolutely no atmosphere and yet was a good RPG because of the story and gameplay.

quote: Since you've like to go cross genre in the arguement...we knew a lot about the SMAC (and SMACX) storyline before it was released

Which was something very rare. How much do we know about Half Life 2's story? But yet, we think it'll be very good.

	11-08-2004 00:51									#129
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[QUOTE] Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

quote: Besides, a game like Baldur's Gate I had absolutely no atmosphere and yet was a good RPG because of the story and gameplay.

BG had no atmosphere? I realize im limited as the only RPGs ive played are BG and PST, and I dont much care for PST's atmosphere, but I thought I preferred BG's medievalish middle european atmosphere (werent the buildings based on Rothenburg, or somewhere like that?) Is faintly tolkienish, pseudo medieval so deeply associated with DnD and RPGS that it doesnt look like atmosphere anymore? Or do most RPGs really have so much more atmosphere than BG?

	11-08-2004 01:10									#130
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I saw that, i thought you were talking about Baltimore Gas and Electric

I thought I was the only one.

quote: Originally posted by nostromo I know that we find these kinds of missions in just about every other RPG. But Fable is probably the first RPG to sell itself with fed ex missions. And we still haven't heard a peep about the main quests...

It isn't trying to sell itself on the fed ex missions. It's offering them as examples so that we don't all know the story before buying the game. The game isn't selling itself on the missions, it's selling itself on the fact that just about every action in the game has lasting consequences. That's the innovation. Until we see it, we can't really judge, but we can be hopeful that it turns out well.

	11-08-2004 01:26									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You're the first person I heard that BG&E had good atmosphere. Then you don't get around often. Read the reviews if you want some more proof. I can't think of a game with better atmosphere. They constructed an entire believable world with a great story and you just felt like you were there.

Ok...read some reviews and yes it does seem like it has an alright atmosphere, but there was no unanimous view on it and there were some negative responses.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: not being able to tell a game might be bad before it's out To Apoc, 'irrational hatred' of a game (which he has towards Fable) = not being able to tell a game may be bad. I guess it makes sense that Apoc can't tell the difference between rational and irrational slagging of a game. Rationality ain't one of his strong points.

Oh ok. Just keep ignoring comments I make like when I say I'm actually considering getting this game.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: That is not a good analogy. Of course it is. You say it isn't because it slaps you down like the tosser you are .

No it doesn't. You completely ignore why I say it's bad because of the two different genres. And I still argued it.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Blizzard said Starcraft would be good because of good multiplayer. That's nice, so your argument relies on Blizzard saying of Starcraft, "it'll be a good multiplayer game". I'm sorry, but they didn't talk about it like it was multiplayer only. The story and the different races (part of the story) where harped on. Basically it is the Half Life of RTS.

I know they didn't, but it was frequently the main point. Single player was secondary. And a lot of people talk about C&C storylines more than SC.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: And Starcraft is a strategy game that did not run on immersion. And it's graphics aren't even really cartoony. The eyes are normal sized. People did not get Starcraft to imagine they were a character in the game. You don't need atmosphere in Starcraft, it's not an RPG. Unlike Fable. Uh huh, Starcraft and other RTS don't want to immerse players in the game. That's why the HUD looked exactly the same whenever you played each race... oh wait. Blizzard's RTSs are well known for their immersion quality. And I didn't realize that if eyes are normal that means things aren't 'cartoony' ( again).

They don't want to immerse and you aren't a character in the game that's out there fighting. Unlike Fable where you are the character fighting. You are just some genera/whatever in Blizzard RTSes. The eyes aren't the only thing. I don't see why you think they are cartoony even, especially considering the quality they had to work with back when SC was out. But seriously, cartoony graphics don't matter near as much in SC than an RPG. In RTSes they are just placeholders. In RPGs they are an avatar.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Besides, a game like Baldur's Gate I had absolutely no atmosphere and yet was a good RPG because of the story and gameplay.

It did have atmosphere. Not the best, but it was there. And you are so digging yourself a hole here. Do you even know why people say it lacked atmosphere? Because of the graphics of the Infinity Engine. Placescape Torment was the only exception because they zoomed in quite nicely in addition to the increased background story. BG also had some problems because there weren't too many really unique characters but that was greatly improved in BG2. But BG2 didn't have the best atmosphere because of the graphics. They don't have to be detailed. They just have to look good.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Since you've like to go cross genre in the arguement...we knew a lot about the SMAC (and SMACX) storyline before it was released Which was something very rare. How much do we know about Half Life 2's story? But yet, we think it'll be very good.

We know a good online of it. And the developers have actually mentioned there will be a good story. The previews talked about the continued cinematic experience. You don't find that in Fable previews.

	11-08-2004 03:27									#132
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quote: Ok...read some reviews and yes it does seem like it has an alright atmosphere, but there was no unanimous view on it and there were some negative responses.

I don't understand this 'negative' view on the atmosphere of Beyond Good and Evil. It's an action/adventure game. Those games need to ooze atmosphere to survive.

quote: Just keep ignoring comments I make like when I say I'm actually considering getting this game.

I like that. Bash everything about the game and then, oh, but I'm considering getting the game, so I'm not really bashing it .

quote: You completely ignore why I say it's bad because of the two different genres.

Difference in genre doesn't matter. Atmosphere was the big thing in Starcraft.

quote: Single player was secondary.

BS. Single player was the thing which was most innovative and impressed people and reviewers

quote: They don't want to immerse and you aren't a character in the game that's out there fighting. Unlike Fable where you are the character fighting. You are just some genera/whatever in Blizzard RTSes.

So if you aren't the character there fighting, there is no immersion? Please! And you are saying that with a straight face?

quote: I don't see why you think they are cartoony even, especially considering the quality they had to work with back when SC was out

I said they are cartoony, because if you think Fable is cartoony then SC definetly is. I personally think neither is.

quote: It did have atmosphere. Not the best, but it was there. And you are so digging yourself a hole here. Do you even know why people say it lacked atmosphere? Because of the graphics of the Infinity Engine.

Um no, not the graphics, because it didn't feel like a real world. It felt like a quest giver placeholder. It didn't feel like a mideval countryside. It lacked the atmosphere. Graphics have nothing to do with it.

quote: You don't find that in Fable previews

Most previews haven't played most of the games. Most of the previews have been with bits and pieces. And besides previews of the story is as much as KOTOR's info at a similar time and that had a great story.

	11-08-2004 06:10									#133
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Yeah, I don't see any cartoony-ness about Fable's graphics. I mean, they're not photorealistic, but they don't look like the Gamecube Zelda graphics either.

	11-08-2004 22:58									#134
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Ok...read some reviews and yes it does seem like it has an alright atmosphere, but there was no unanimous view on it and there were some negative responses. I don't understand this 'negative' view on the atmosphere of Beyond Good and Evil. It's an action/adventure game. Those games need to ooze atmosphere to survive.

Not really. The Dig and Full Throttle weren't that high on atmosphere, at least graphically. It was largely music, voice acting, and story.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Just keep ignoring comments I make like when I say I'm actually considering getting this game. I like that. Bash everything about the game and then, oh, but I'm considering getting the game, so I'm not really bashing it .

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You completely ignore why I say it's bad because of the two different genres. Difference in genre doesn't matter. Atmosphere was the big thing in Starcraft.

Except there wasn't much. People rarely talk about it.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Single player was secondary. BS. Single player was the thing which was most innovative and impressed people and reviewers

Now you're just being silly and not even arguing.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: They don't want to immerse and you aren't a character in the game that's out there fighting. Unlike Fable where you are the character fighting. You are just some genera/whatever in Blizzard RTSes. So if you aren't the character there fighting, there is no immersion? Please! And you are saying that with a straight face?

I didn't say that exactly. Just that it's a lot less. Fallout isn't as immersive as Morrowind in this respect since it is third compared to first, so it relied on other things. Fable just doesn't seem to have these other things.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I don't see why you think they are cartoony even, especially considering the quality they had to work with back when SC was out I said they are cartoony, because if you think Fable is cartoony then SC definetly is. I personally think neither is.

Well, that's just crazy. I'm not the only one saying it. You're the only person I'm hearing say Fable isn't cartoony.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: It did have atmosphere. Not the best, but it was there. And you are so digging yourself a hole here. Do you even know why people say it lacked atmosphere? Because of the graphics of the Infinity Engine. Um no, not the graphics, because it didn't feel like a real world. It felt like a quest giver placeholder. It didn't feel like a mideval countryside. It lacked the atmosphere. Graphics have nothing to do with it.

Think about why it didn't feel like medieval countryside. Sound? No, Story? No, Dialog? No. All of those were generally praised. What's left? Graphics.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You don't find that in Fable previews Most previews haven't played most of the games. Most of the previews have been with bits and pieces. And besides previews of the story is as much as KOTOR's info at a similar time and that had a great story.

No no no. If it was supposed to have a good story, they'd mention that more. And say that it's good. They aren't saying that. They at least said it with KOTOR.

	11-08-2004 23:09									#135
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i really enjoyed the sound and music in BG. Added to the atmosphere for me.

	12-08-2004 01:57									#136
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quote: Not really. The Dig and Full Throttle weren't that high on atmosphere, at least graphically. It was largely music, voice acting, and story.

Graphics only have a little do with the 'atmosphere'.

quote: Except there wasn't much. People rarely talk about it.

Go talk to some Starcraft nuts. They still discuss the heros in the game. It's almost like a freaking religion.

quote: Fallout isn't as immersive as Morrowind in this respect since it is third compared to first, so it relied on other things. Fable just doesn't seem to have these other things.

How do you know? Because you don't see what you want in the previews? That proves.... what exactly?

quote: You're the only person I'm hearing say Fable isn't cartoony.

Look right above you at Felch's post:

Yeah, I don't see any cartoony-ness about Fable's graphics. I mean, they're not photorealistic, but they don't look like the Gamecube Zelda graphics either.

quote: Think about why it didn't feel like medieval countryside. Sound? No, Story? No, Dialog? No. All of those were generally praised. What's left? Graphics.

Actually it was the Story and Dialog. Cheesy BS. Really took away from the atmosphere. And the story wasn't 'praised'. It was lackluster at best. It was a cookie cutter story.

quote: If it was supposed to have a good story, they'd mention that more. And say that it's good. They aren't saying that. They at least said it with KOTOR.

Where? In hardly any previews did they speak of the 'good' story in KOTOR. They spoke of the graphics and how it felt like Star Wars. Story wasn't even discussed, because the previewers didn't get to play around with it, just like with Fable!

	12-08-2004 09:46									#137
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quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse No no no. If it was supposed to have a good story, they'd mention that more. And say that it's good. They aren't saying that. They at least said it with KOTOR.

Not true, they concentrate on the selling points of a game, or whatever the developers are most proud of. Every RPG has a story of some sort, but not every RPG has this level of influence over the game world. That's why they don't mention the story much.

	12-08-2004 17:16									#138
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http://www3.cjad.com/content/cp_art...ws/e081129A.htm

quote: Xbox's Fable offers unique video game choice of good versus evil Updated at 15:33 on August 11, 2004, EST. TORONTO (CP) - Creator Peter Molyneux looks a bit sheepish when asked how long it took to make his game Fable. Nineteen babies were born to members of his Lionhead Studio during the three-plus years of development. There were 3,905 Indian and 2,786 Chinese takeout meals ordered. "There's a finance department that's constantly reminding me how much we're spending on takeaway food," the British game designer said with a laugh. The result is a unique role-playing game for the Xbox, due out Sept. 14, where the gamer chooses either the path of righteousness or evil. It's a wide-open world full of possibilities. You start out as a child and even then decisions you make carry consequences. Spotting a villager kissing a woman on the sly, you face a predicament minutes later when the man's wife asks whether you have seen her husband. As the game goes on, the decisions you make determine how you look and how others treat you. Fall into evil, and villagers shrink in fear. Your physique changes, there may even be flies buzzing around your head. A hero, meanwhile, will be feted by the locals. Women will develop crushes on you. There is a resolution to the game. Of course, it's the ultimate moral choice. But it doesn't signify the game experience is over. "Why close everything down, just because you've finished the story?" Molyneux asks. "One of the joys is to go through this game, get to the end of this story, and then walk out into the world . . . you can just carry on playing the game in this world." Molyneux is a well-dressed 45-year-old who looks like he might once have played in the rock band Dire Straits. But his forte has been making PC games, from Black & White, and Populous to Dungeon Keeper - titles that have earned the elegant Briton favoured status among game designers. Fable is his first foray into the console world. And his first role-playing game. He admits the genre has always been a passion of his, recalling how he lost a girlfriend because of a game called Wizardry some 20 years ago when she spent three hours at a pub waiting for him while he played on. "I was totally obsessed with this role-playing game," he said. When he finally got the opportunity to make one of his own, he decided to focus on what he enjoyed as a player - developing a character, making the gamer feel like a hero and choosing one's own path. Rather than start out as a traditional good guy, he opted to have the gamer start as essentially a blank character. "I think the results are much more interesting," he said. While Fable is designed to entertain, its game play can also speak volumes about people, according to Molyneux. "If you play the game for four or five hours, if I look at the stats, I can really have an insight into what sort of person you are," he said. "You know real insight into whether you're someone who is more attracted to the fast buck approach or whether someone has taken the time and been good and been nice. "It's quite an interesting insight." The Fable designers allow the gamer to make his own choices, but they were not above tweaking the game "to tempt the player into the darker side." "The interesting thing about all of this is you may think that every full-blooded teenager is going to go straight to that evil side," Molyneux said. "It's just not true." "Over seventy per cent who play Fable will go for the good side. It may be even higher than that." That's what testing the game has shown, anyway. In the U.S., when he demos the game, the vast majority of people want to see the good side, Molyneux said. In Germany, it's the other way. "There's one lone hand coming up," he said. "There is this cultural difference. It's very strange." Psychologists have told him perhaps Americans really want to see the evil side but feel embarrassed to say so. The sliding moral scale of the game has proved to be a rating conundrum. In North America, Fable has been given a mature rating. Germany, despite the fact it has tough rating guidelines, OK'd it for 12-year-olds to play, deciding it was a morally enriching story. Molyneux and his helpers - the credits to the game roll like a movie and include well-known Hollywood composer Danny Elfman who came up with the game's theme - had some real design wrinkles to work out along the way. Disliking reams of text in games - something he attributes to his dyslexia - he needed to find other ways to tell the story. He also wanted the character development to change, subtly. "It's not a sudden thing, it's a slow progression. If you're being evil your hero's jaw will start offsetting, to get that evil grimace, and his eyes will be a bit more deep-set." Given the freedom of Fable, the designers also found during testing that gamers were getting lost in the world. "They didn't know what to do." They got around it with the simple device of an indicator in the small on-screen map showing you where to go for your next challenge. Testing the game was also a challenge, because it is so open-ended. Molyneux says he has been "really surprised and sometimes quite shocked" by what people read into Fable. The lack of moral guidance and sophisticated game play make for all sorts of possibilities. One tester, deciding to push Fable's economic model to the limit, took over a village by slaughtering its occupants and then buying up all the property at a bargain-basement price. He then waited for people to repopulate the village and waited for money to pour in. "There's lots of examples of bizarre behaviour that's happened in the game." And Molyneux, whose studio is based just outside of London in Guilford, expects to hear a lot more when Fable hits stores.

	12-08-2004 17:24									#139
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quote: The lack of moral guidance and sophisticated game play make for all sorts of possibilities. One tester, deciding to push Fable's economic model to the limit, took over a village by slaughtering its occupants and then buying up all the property at a bargain-basement price. He then waited for people to repopulate the village and waited for money to pour in.

That's ****ing awesome!

Thanks for the link, Asher. Sept 14? That only a month away .

	12-08-2004 22:38									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Not really. The Dig and Full Throttle weren't that high on atmosphere, at least graphically. It was largely music, voice acting, and story. Graphics only have a little do with the 'atmosphere'.

That statement is retarded.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Except there wasn't much. People rarely talk about it. Go talk to some Starcraft nuts. They still discuss the heros in the game. It's almost like a freaking religion.

I do. They've forgotten about single player.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Fallout isn't as immersive as Morrowind in this respect since it is third compared to first, so it relied on other things. Fable just doesn't seem to have these other things. How do you know? Because you don't see what you want in the previews? That proves.... what exactly?

Why wouldn't any preview or article have even a mention of a decent story? Especially with all the hype around it.

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You're the only person I'm hearing say Fable isn't cartoony. Look right above you at Felch's post: Yeah, I don't see any cartoony-ness about Fable's graphics. I mean, they're not photorealistic, but they don't look like the Gamecube Zelda graphics either.

Hey's just being your lapdog for this thread though.

UOTE] Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

quote: Think about why it didn't feel like medieval countryside. Sound? No, Story? No, Dialog? No. All of those were generally praised. What's left? Graphics.

Actually it was the Story and Dialog. Cheesy BS. Really took away from the atmosphere. And the story wasn't 'praised'. It was lackluster at best. It was a cookie cutter story.[/QUOTE]
Again, retarded. You're going against vast popular and professional opinion. It was fairly cookie cutter, but there were twists and it was fairly well written, at least in terms of language, tone, etc.

UOTE] Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

quote: If it was supposed to have a good story, they'd mention that more. And say that it's good. They aren't saying that. They at least said it with KOTOR.

Where? In hardly any previews did they speak of the 'good' story in KOTOR. They spoke of the graphics and how it felt like Star Wars. Story wasn't even discussed, because the previewers didn't get to play around with it, just like with Fable! [/QUOTE]
Oh my...it's not like writers don't talk to the developers about the game. They don't have to play it to write about the story.

quote: The rather vague amount of information on that era has allowed BioWare a great deal of freedom to play to its strengths as a developer and craft a game that features a rich story and deep gameplay.

From Gamespot's first preview. You don't know what you're talking about. I'm not asking to hear a lot about the story, just something positive about it. It doesn't even necessarily mean it's true if they say it's good. It just means that they at least seem to have it as more than an afterthought.

quote: Not true, they concentrate on the selling points of a game, or whatever the developers are most proud of. Every RPG has a story of some sort, but not every RPG has this level of influence over the game world. That's why they don't mention the story much.

You can still say it's positive for the people who care.

	13-08-2004 00:36									#141
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At this point I can't even tell if you guys are arguing or just posting whatever anymore.

I think everyone agrees that the game has potential and we hope it turns out ok.

	13-08-2004 00:50									#142
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I'm trying to make a point at least.

	13-08-2004 09:11									#143
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quote: "Over seventy per cent who play Fable will go for the good side. It may be even higher than that." That's what testing the game has shown, anyway. In the U.S., when he demos the game, the vast majority of people want to see the good side, Molyneux said. In Germany, it's the other way.

So the movies are right. Germans are evil

	13-08-2004 09:13									#144
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They probably just have a lot of built up angst. Or maybe they don't like being so close to Finland.

	13-08-2004 10:15									#145
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Angst = fear?

	13-08-2004 10:33									#146
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Ummm....no.

	13-08-2004 10:44									#147
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Point is, Germans have a penchant for evil.

	13-08-2004 10:51									#148
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I'm part German and I'm a nice guy.

	15-08-2004 02:51									#149
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Evil people always seem nice. That's how they get you. Offering you a free train ride and hot shower, and BAM, spring the Zyklon B on you when you least expect it.

	15-08-2004 04:27									#150
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That was a little uncalled for.