11-08-2004 02:41									#181
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And no, I didn't mean that complexity isn't complexity by definiton. That would be kind of weird argument. What I meant is, that what we understand by the complexity of a woman is not the complexity that we mean with that word. Maybe I exaplined myself little difficult, but by the time I got here, you missed my point, and that lead you to miss this point also, and the bottom line point at the end. The whole post was one big argument, and to brake it down like that makes it out of the context.

I'll try again.

Woman says 'I don't like that you don't argue with me', really meaning 'I want to hear that you care for me'.
The first sentence doesnt' really make the second sentence a fact. The first sentence means that she doesn't lkie that someone doesn't argue her. Everything else is just signal or indication to another thing what she really is trying to say or mean. But the first sentence remains. And the man, understanding the words, understand what the sentence REALLY means, not what it is supposed to mean (I want to hear ..). Now, a man says, well why don't you say that then? Well, women are more complex than men, or men are just more simple.

Just because someone would claim, that woman is more complex, it doesn't make her arguments facts. Men rely on facts most of the times, simple facts. Women try to say, it's not that simple, trying to defy facts. They hide it under the word 'complex'. That's what I mean by complexity is taken out of its very definition by a woman. Because what the word really means, is again, hidden by that horrible agenda of scrambling and defying simple facts.

And yes, of course complex and simple co-exists, because they're each others opposites. But what woman tries to hide as complex thing doesn't equal complex by its very factual definition.

Now, women are supposed to be in touch with their emotions, and express themselves, and taht's the part that men sometimes have hard time understanding, because they express those complex issues, and that would equal the complex behaviour. NOW if you disagree with that, that it's not the same as complex behaviour, the two don't connect, then women are NOT in touch with their feelings. And then there is just no explanation for the complex behaviour AT ALL. And thus, there is no excuse for it. Or even if you agree, tha tyes, the complex behaviour is because in fact they have complex thoughts, then again it doesn't justify complex behaviour because it in fact isn't complex, because if it was, it would still have to rely on facts.

	11-08-2004 02:44									#182
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complex=opposite of simple=opposite of fact=BS.

NO!

you took it out of the context again. Take in to account the woman complex, and the REAL complex, that is based on facts. It's a whole different thing.

	11-08-2004 02:45									#183
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Yes I did come up with simple men doing complex things. I said, that complexity is a simple definition. Complex does not equal non-facts. Complex is a fact that is not simple, and that fact is simple itself. By this I was trying to say, that you can't say something is complex if you can't understand it, and still think it's a fact. Men debate and do their stuff simple, basing their arguments on facts, and using words by their definition. You can't hide behind that just saying 'well my argument is so complex'.

Wait who is the guy who said "my argument is complex" here again?

quote: If it's non-factual, well it basically is BS. We don't even need the love example at all in here.

"Do you love me?" Which part is non-factual in that sentence?
"Why don't you want to argue with me?" Which part is non-factual in that sentence?
Talking about BS.

quote: Ah so I'm the one trying to explain complex behaviour is because of things are so complex? Yeah I'm the one, but I'm not the only one. The famous saying is that women are complex and men are simple, because men don't understand women sometiems with their stuff. Because they don't say things how the mean, but they expect you to pick up signs and know what she REALLY means. That's the BS in action right there.

No hear me say it, again. The non-understanding is mutual.
If you don't want to pick up signs, that's fine. And if she doesn't want to learn to understand you, that's fine too. You two just don't have to live together, see? How simple is that? If you want to live togethe, well, you may simply WANT to understand each other. And that is a fact.

Ok let me be more straight forward. The part that is troubling you, is that you want to change women. One can learn, and grow. But one should not expect to change somebody. You can get more by learing, so be more understanding toward each other in this case, but you cannot become less by cutting some behaviors. Just like you can grow taller, but not shorter.

quote: And no, definition and facts are different things. You took my explanation completely out of the context of the whole explanation thing, and then named the words with letters, and over simplyfying the simple post itself, ultimately making it more complex.

Ahh now I'm oversimplifying. And you are still not satisfied? What do you really want me to be? Complex? Or simple?

(ps. Yes you can never win. Too bad. I'm a woman. )

quote: Read the other post where I put it more simple. Should make more sense if the first one didn't, which it clearly didn't.

Yes I did. And it helped a lot to demonstrate how faulty you are.

	11-08-2004 02:46									#184
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And I'm stereotyping here a little, not all women are alike, not all men are alike. If they would, you would spontaniously stop to exists because of my facts .

	11-08-2004 02:47									#185
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Pekka is getting pwned by a girl.

	11-08-2004 02:50									#186
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Snowflake, yes man can be complex too, when he relies on facts on complex issues. A woman is complex but doesn't rely on facts, making it a women complex thing, which should have it's own word so it wouldn't mix up wiht things. I'll let you catch up, you're little behind me like few posts.

	11-08-2004 02:51									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Barinthus Yep hence the PM , SF. Whoa, I had to go thru like 4 pages of this thread. Forgive me if I skimmed most of it. You know, I think I figured out what my problem is. I cook, wash dishes, put dishes away, clean, tend the gardens, give her a massage, cuddle with her, rub her feet, make the bed, do laundry (what can I do, I've been a bachelor for too long). Then when I sit down so I can read a book, she comes in and ask me to do and this. Eventually I start to feel unappreciated since I have pretty much done most of other chores and naturally I become cranky hence the arguments. I guess the solution is just stop doing some of those stuff?

No. Please don't. All you have been doing are wonderful. But she needs to realize that and learn not to take it for granted. But just don't go all bullistic when she comes in when you are finally getting your own time. Talk to her when you are giving her a massage. Tell her how you feel. How you love her and what you would love her to do so you would also feel appreciated. She'd actually appreciate you telling her about your feelings.

	11-08-2004 02:52									#188
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"Why don't you want to argue with me?" Which part is non-factual in that sentence?

The whole sentence.

Jeesh! I explained this already and it wasn't COMPLEX at all.

	11-08-2004 02:53									#189
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Snowflake, yes man can be complex too, when he relies on facts on complex issues. A woman is complex but doesn't rely on facts, making it a women complex thing, which should have it's own word so it wouldn't mix up wiht things.

Yes. It is a fact. Live with it.

quote: I'll let you catch up, you're little behind me like few posts.

Pahh I can just skip them. I'm a woman.

	11-08-2004 02:54									#190
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quote: Originally posted by Spec You see, that's the problem right there. Why dont yo take it out your self? The problem is: Girls always ask the boyfriend to do stuff....or tells him to do stuff but the boy does it by himself instyead of asking. And if we ask, it's a sure ''no''. Spec.

so true, so very true. of couyrse when you suggest that she do it herself you are met with, "i already asked you to do it"

	11-08-2004 02:54									#191
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka And I'm stereotyping here a little, not all women are alike, not all men are alike. If they would, you would spontaniously stop to exists because of my facts .

You can still pretend that. Afterall who tells you that you are a fact? May be you are simply an imagination of the Thing himself.

	11-08-2004 02:54									#192
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"Ok let me be more straight forward. The part that is troubling you, is that you want to change women. One can learn, and grow. But one should not expect to change somebody. "

Fair enough. I try to change one woman, and all the women of the world try to change men.
And yeah, I took it out of the context, just like you have done with my one big argument. Which indicates I'm a woman, but let's just say I had a brainfart.

	11-08-2004 02:56									#193
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quote: Originally posted by MRT144 so true, so very true. of couyrse when you suggest that she do it herself you are met with, "i already asked you to do it"

Often times though, when she was asking you to do something, like taking out the trash, she is doing something else, like bathing the kids. It's not like she is sitting in the sofa with you and watching the TV with a beer in her hands. Now how's that for a sterotype.

	11-08-2004 03:00									#194
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No you can't skip it because there is no one and two arguments in the theory, it's one big of an argument. I try to put it as short as possible:

When we talk about women being complex, it doesn't necessarily equal the word complex. Complex is still based on facts, while we talk about women being complex, it doesn't necessarly mean they have issues that are based on facts, and they're just complex. That's the emotional thing. Women are more emotional. Complex. So far so good? You've tried to refute this argument, and you really have to come up with huge assasination argument to kill this.

There are two different complexes. The factual complex, and the woman complexity.

Now, a woman that is in touch with her emotions as people claim, if she is, then it shows in her action. It manifests in her actions, because she is touch with her emoitons and feelings. Now, if a woman acts irrationally, we say it's the emotions. But since it's woman complex, and not factual complex, there is no excuse for the behaviour.

If you disagree and say, well it's not the same thing, the mental complexity and actions, then well how do you explain the actions then? Even less excuses, plus then you are saying women are not so in touch with their emotions. Either way, this is why I say it's BS on action.

	11-08-2004 03:02									#195
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No kids in the picture. She's usually napping, chatting with the neighbors, reading, or writing letters/journals.

Granted she could be doing something although for my life, I can't figure what it could be. If I was a lazy slob who did nothing, I'd understand her asking me to do this or that.

However I'm not a lazy slob and whatever has to be done will be done. I just need breaks too.

I'm afraid it's more complicated than this although.

	11-08-2004 03:06									#196
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And it's not all the time that women behave like psychos. It's just some of the time. Thats why men need the STRONG MAN FAQ... it's to be used if the man is tired and can't just handle the woman complexity. BEcause you can't argue with facts in those situation, and you will always lose. If the man is tired, and he wants it to stop, he uses the STRONG MAN FAQ and pre-emptive strike.

	11-08-2004 03:06									#197
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quote: Originally posted by Pekka Woman says 'I don't like that you don't argue with me', really meaning 'I want to hear that you care for me'. The first sentence doesnt' really make the second sentence a fact. The first sentence means that she doesn't lkie that someone doesn't argue her. Everything else is just signal or indication to another thing what she really is trying to say or mean. But the first sentence remains. And the man, understanding the words, understand what the sentence REALLY means, not what it is supposed to mean (I want to hear ..). Now, a man says, well why don't you say that then?

Because you'll be mad when she says that? You do realize that you are suggesting she saying something that you have claimed that you do not want to hear do you? And there she thought she's being more considerate and understanding your feeling and be more tactiful.

quote: Just because someone would claim, that woman is more complex, it doesn't make her arguments facts. Men rely on facts most of the times, simple facts. Women try to say, it's not that simple, trying to defy facts. They hide it under the word 'complex'. That's what I mean by complexity is taken out of its very definition by a woman. Because what the word really means, is again, hidden by that horrible agenda of scrambling and defying simple facts. And yes, of course complex and simple co-exists, because they're each others opposites. But what woman tries to hide as complex thing doesn't equal complex by its very factual definition. Now, women are supposed to be in touch with their emotions, and express themselves, and taht's the part that men sometimes have hard time understanding, because they express those complex issues, and that would equal the complex behaviour. NOW if you disagree with that, that it's not the same as complex behaviour, the two don't connect, then women are NOT in touch with their feelings. And then there is just no explanation for the complex behaviour AT ALL. And thus, there is no excuse for it. Or even if you agree, tha tyes, the complex behaviour is because in fact they have complex thoughts, then again it doesn't justify complex behaviour because it in fact isn't complex, because if it was, it would still have to rely on facts.

Come now, let's leave the whole complex and simple argument. And I thought their it was claimed that women was the one who couldn't stop argueing.

Women are simple. Really. They wants very little. Just show them that you love them and care for them from time to time, and if she loves you than she would be really happy. It's that simple. And it's a fact.

And another fact is, this woman has to run home and take care of her own SO and her own unit. And she had to work extra hours tonight to make up the work she missed because of her involvement in the Saving the misunderstanding pekka operation.

	11-08-2004 03:11									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Snowflake Often times though, when she was asking you to do something, like taking out the trash, she is doing something else, like bathing the kids. It's not like she is sitting in the sofa with you and watching the TV with a beer in her hands. Now how's that for a sterotype.

'

sadly, this was my last girlfriend, no kids, and she loved watching MTV all the ****ing time. asked me to get things and run errands she was perfectly capable of. didnt put out at all either.

	11-08-2004 03:12									#199
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quote: What you should have said, is that you would be there with her all the time. And of course you knew that she would be in a cracky mode and you'd be the casualty of her fire, but what does it matter if you could only make her feel a little better. And by this you'd make her so moved by your willing sacrifice and say "I wouldn't be mad at you!" And she'll actually try not to be mad at you when the time comes. And if she is about to be mad at the time you can subtly mention this "See I told you you'd be mad at me" and if you are lucky enough she'd laugh it off. But remember don't say the last thing when it is too late, for she could say "Yeah of course you are always right and I'm always in cranky mood. Why did you come here then? Why don't you just get out and leave me alone!"

Right. That approach got me ditched. I wanted to help, and it didn't matter anyways. She found someone else that would be there for the fun stuff but not willing to put up with the hard times.

	11-08-2004 03:13									#200
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"Because you'll be mad when she says that? You do realize that you are suggesting she saying something that you have claimed that you do not want to hear do you? And there she thought she's being more considerate and understanding your feeling and be more tactiful."

Well don't make much sense to start fight over the other thing to get to the other thing now does it?
And at that point, only for one week in, that's not an issue even.. she can ask me that for sures. If she thinks I'd get mad about it, then she should do it anyway, because hey, better odds for not fighting than starting a fight straight away. Besides, if she would think I'd get mad, then it would mean I do like her, but I'm just tired of saying it all the time, thus what's the point of asking anyway if she knows it. Well, this is really not an issue though. I'm not arguing this one. I guess there's no right or wrong in this one.

No you can't give up and try to disregard my whole big theory. That's rude. I spent a lot of time trying to put it into words, partially failing, but at the last explanation I think I came pretty good with what I was trying to say. English is my second language so it's not always easy to put things on writing, when you have to explain something and have difficult things like definitions, facts, complexity by two different definitons, facts, non-facts etc. You have to come through! Either accept my theory, or kill it with facts. Surrender or keep on fighting.

	11-08-2004 03:19									#201
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quote: I'm hearing impaired myself and I've saved myself from many a tricky question with it. But don't be afraid of hearing aids, you can still use such tricks with it and look genuine. And besides, you can always be too stubborn to wear them unless really necessary.

Indeed. I am in the same boat. Hearing aids help for many things, but they do not restore your former hearing.

One other thing, is that you will find yourself reading lips off other people. Generally, in doing this, you get to be seen as rather attentive.

	11-08-2004 03:22									#202
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quote: Sometimes it's a question of ambiant background noise, depending on the frequency. There are circumstances when I can hear great, and others when I have problems. So he may not be necessarily spoofing you.

It can really depend on the frequency. I can hear low pitches very well, but I can't hear fire alarms when standing 5 feet from them.

	11-08-2004 03:25									#203
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quote: But selective hearing is hardly a strictly male thing you know. (and thanks to the wondrous technology of MSN, they always happen to have just left, or happen to have been occupied by something significant, when something tricky comes up.

Very true.

	11-08-2004 03:28									#204
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quote: Women has different views about love from men. Men think love as if it is a stone. There, it is there. See? It was there yesterday. Why wouldn't it be there today? Women think love as if it is a tree. You need to water it everyday.

I'll have to remember that. Thanks Snowflake.

	11-08-2004 03:29									#205
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also she always wanted me to carry her cell phone and house keys and other things while she didnt have a purse. when i asked her why she didnt, she said the cell phone made her look fat. i told her only retards and self absorbed *****es would think that.

	11-08-2004 03:32									#206
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quote: And the last "pre-emptive strike" is really a nice touch. I'd be surprised if any girl would be stupid enough to hang around with you after that. Not only slow to understand her, not only uncare about the non-physical side of her, but also rude and disrespective.

That depends on the situation. You can't keep fighting about this stuff forever. Either the two of you will come to some kind of compromise, and won't bring up a subject or you will go your separate ways. If you have already discussed something and then come to that agreement, then it makes sense to go this route, and can be the only way to preserve a relationship for a long time.

It's not disrespectful, but rather, you are saying that I care about you and what you believe, but it's not worth a fight that will lead to no progress.

	11-08-2004 03:32									#207
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MRT144, come on, please say you made that up? The cell phone thing .

	11-08-2004 03:34									#208
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i did not.

	11-08-2004 03:35									#209
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OMG Ohh the PAIN! I'm sorry..

	11-08-2004 03:37									#210
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yeah, obviously my opinion of women and relationships is scewwed by her. It really makes me believe that i can not be compatible with any women if they are like this.