26-08-2004 20:34									#241
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I don't disagree, actually.

I'm just thinking that if something DOES happen (and it might...history has shown us that much)....maybe the ones who are hooting and jeering as the last truck leaves might feel a little tickle in their gut wondering at our response if they have to turn 'round and ask us to return someday.

And I think that's a fair question.

-=Vel=-

	26-08-2004 20:36									#242
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Swift and decisive isn't always good. Kosovo isn't some sort of textbook illustration of the effectiveness of intervention! We jumped in guns blazing (or rather bombs dropping) only to find out later that the side we had interevened to protect was, in part, as nasty or nastier than the "bad guys" we were protecting them from. Now it's swung back the other way, with the Albanians beating on the Serbs. Fantastic! Mission accomplished!

Perhaps leaving it alone would have been the correct move after all. The military might of Europe may not be sufficient to project power across the globe, but they can defend themselves. And perhaps that's all the should do.

-Arrian

	26-08-2004 20:37									#243
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quote: I do wonder though, how quick the same folks who are cheering us as we leave and telling us to "never come back" will be to beg us back if/when something nasty happens that they cannot, or will not deal with on their own. Not that that's ever happened before, mind....

The last time you have been begged, would be 1944. Europe has changed somewhat since this time. It is a continent, the unification of which has progressed well. The Cold War is long over, internal wars are as good as impossible, and an external enemy is not in sight (and don't even try to point at Russia). And no, Yugoslavia 1999 does not count. Most European countries and their population shared the opinion, that the situation there, as unpleasant as it was, did not justify an intervention. The United States wanted to intervene, and the Europeans followed unwilling and half hearted. Nobody "begged". Sometimes I have the heretic suspicion, that Clinton just needed a war to distract from his embarrassing blowjob affairs. Well, heretic, I said it myself...

The United States wore out most of their welcome here in the past 4 years by the rather hostile behavior of their administration. Nobody wants a hostile nation on his territory, and nobody wants his territory to be abused as base for wars of aggression. So I beg your pardon if a big part of the European (and particularly German) population enjoys the departure of your military.

	26-08-2004 20:39									#244
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Clinton's blowjob distraction operation was actually firing cruise missles at a factory in Sudan, I think. Wasn't Kosovo before the Lewinski affair?

-Arrian

	26-08-2004 20:40									#245
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All valid points.

And we shall see.

-=Vel=-

	26-08-2004 20:41									#246
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Don't remember the dates that sharp.

	26-08-2004 20:47									#247
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And just so you know, I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade here.

If you guys wanna throw a big party to celebrate our leaving...have at it.

But this phrase wars are as good as impossible, and an external enemy is not in sight

sure strikes a spookily similar chord with all the talk just before the first world war that "war was a thing of the past." A relic that had outlived its usefulness.

Uh huh.

So I'm cautious.

Have your party. Enjoy it. But I'd advise at least some caution when it comes to saying "never come back" cos things change, and history does have an odd way of repeating sometimes....

-=Vel=-

	26-08-2004 20:57									#248
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The "leave and never come back" line reminds me of the scene in Lord of the Rings (Two Towers) where Smeagol tells Gollum to go away. One of the things Gollum says to Smeagol in the scene is "We survived because of ME!"

Gollum is Smeagol's amoral, win-at-all-costs, murderous thug side. Many in Europe have come to that very conclusion about the United States. Whether or not that is a fair (and balanced ) conclusion is another matter, which I do not care to debate. If that's how they see us, let's just go. Calmly and quietly. Ditto South Korea.

What better way to show that we're NOT thugs (besides kicking the invading other countries habit - but that's too much to ask)?

-Arrian

	26-08-2004 20:59									#249
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We don't disagree in the least then, Brother Arrian...tho I contend that the hypothetical question asked is still a fair one...

-=Vel=-
(and that was among my favorite lines in the LoTR movies!)

	26-08-2004 21:01									#250
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The way PJ managed to portray the Smeagol/Gollum personalities was excellent. The first time I saw it, I was actually grinning with delight. He nailed that.

-Arrian

	26-08-2004 21:13									#251
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Have to agree. And as a bit of an aside, when intoxicated, I can do a VERY close impersonation of Gollum/Smeagol exchanges....much to the delight and merriment of my friends...

-=Vel=-

	26-08-2004 21:14									#252
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Good move to turn this unpleasant fight (was it even one?) into a LoTR discussion.

	26-08-2004 21:17									#253
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I was rather pleased with that particular threadjack. There was unpleasantness, but not between the people still posting. Some trolls were about, but the sun came up and turned them into stone

-Arrian

	26-08-2004 21:21									#254
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To borrow a phrase from the always quotable Ted Striker, and then to change the meaning in this instance....

Arrian hit it.

-=Vel=-

	26-08-2004 21:25									#255
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What do you stupid Eurocommies and dumb hick American imperialists think you're doing getting along and stuff?

	26-08-2004 21:28									#257
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quote: Some trolls were about, but the sun came up and turned them into stone

The sun's been down the whole time here, partner.

	26-08-2004 21:34									#258
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Metaphor, Drake, metaphor.

quote: What do you stupid Eurocommies and dumb hick American imperialists think you're doing getting along and stuff?

Hmm, come to think of it, what do arrogant Yankees and dumb hick Rebs think we're doing getting along and stuff? Time for a civil war thread?

-Arrian

	26-08-2004 21:36									#259
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Ohhhhh.....way past time for one of those....

-=Vel=-
(the south can't "rise again" cos we never quit fighting...you yanks just gave up and went home, ya buncha lightweights!)

	26-08-2004 21:37									#260
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WOOHOO! War of Northern Aggression thread time!!!!!eleven!!!!

I still remember being about 6 years old, and coming to visit family in Birmingham. My older cousin and a family friend managed to convince me the war never ended, and Southerners were still fighting a guerilla campaign. I was ready to sign up right then and there.

	26-08-2004 21:38									#261
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It didn't...yankees just got tard of chasing the grey ghost is all....needed a lil' breather.

-=Vel=-

	26-08-2004 21:40									#262
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And, Arrian....

Best.

Threadjack.

EVER!



-=Vel=-

	26-08-2004 21:52									#263
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Solomwi,

There was a period of time when I thought I would've fought for the South. You know, State's Rights and all that. Then I grew up & actually studied the antebellum era.

-Arrian

	27-08-2004 04:58									#264
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quote: Originally posted by problem_child Okay Drake, you carry on being Drake. Personaly just I'm enjoying the warm comfy feeling of superiority (marred only a little by Lying Tony) that comes from not having been born in America, from not being Ignorant, and not being a big fat SUV-chugging burger-eater who consumes my way through sixty percent of the worlds resources and whose violent gun-swamped culture has no civic spirit whatsoever (nor understanding of the concept) and executes and imprisons more of it's own people then Iran and China combined, which adds generously to it's history steeped in slavery and genocide to put a very Orwellian spin indeed to the term 'Land of the Free'. *Not that all Americans are ignorant, but alot are considering the power they have to enlighten themselves compared to some goat-herdsman somewhere who is provided with roughly the same amount of world-knowledge and history as many Americans provide themselves with.

When England was running the World, it was OK.

	27-08-2004 06:41									#265
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quote: When England was running the World, it was OK.

The US has done immoral things but I don't think anyone (maybe the Romans or Spanish) can compare with England.

	27-08-2004 06:49									#266
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quote: Personaly just I'm enjoying the warm comfy feeling of superiority (marred only a little by Lying Tony) that comes from not having been born in America, from not being Ignorant, and not being a big fat SUV-chugging burger-eater who consumes my way through sixty percent of the worlds resources and whose violent gun-swamped culture has no civic spirit whatsoever (nor understanding of the concept) and executes and imprisons more of it's own people then Iran and China combined, which adds generously to it's history steeped in slavery and genocide to put a very Orwellian spin indeed to the term 'Land of the Free'.

Well, we aren't free and those who say we are is either ignorant or dishonest, but the US consumes alot because the US produces alot and the world should recognise that. Show me a country that does produce alot that doesn't also consume alot and I'll show you a fictional country...

	27-08-2004 07:30									#267
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Problem Child, you may want to actually check some of those statements...

	27-08-2004 09:10									#268
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx It didn't...yankees just got tard of chasing the grey ghost is all....needed a lil' breather. -=Vel=-

It would be nice though if they withdrew their troops from our territory as well.


On Topic: I think that a great deal of good has come from having several million US citizens spending a year or two in central Europe. For many, it wastheir only chance to ever go overseas and experience a different culture. It will be sad to see that end. The idea that troops are needed is not valid at this time IMO, but the loss of cultural understanding for many young Americans will surely be missed.

	27-08-2004 09:13									#269
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO On Topic: I think that a great deal of good has come from having several million US citizens spending a year or two in central Europe.

Where in the Nine Hells did you get that number?

	27-08-2004 09:14									#270
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hundreds of thousands of US troops, rotated in and out over the span of several decades....

-=Vel=-