18-08-2004 23:57									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Verto Yes, everyone knows you aren't really black unless you are poor, on welfare, doing drugs, and lacking the ability to speak proper English. Racist

The color of Keyes' skin is undeniable... but he is not black in the sense that he isn't a member of the black community. And he certainly isn't a part of black culture in America. Nor does he care about what's best for the black community or black people in general.

Keyes is a member of White America... rich, white america more specifically. Just another conservative dingbat. But his color is significant because Keyes has no other qualities that sets him apart from most conservatives. If he were white, he'd be just another dopey Repuke. But the Repukes trot him out there simply because he's black and running against a black candidate in the IL Senate race.

	19-08-2004 01:16									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III Isn't Keyes Spencer's "politician of choice"?

Yes cos of comments like this

quote: At a news conference earlier Tuesday, a fired up Keyes discussed the debate over expanding O'Hare International Airport, an issue he has yet to take a stand on, saying the multi-billion dollar issue is paralyzed by political corruption. "It's sort of like you're sitting in a room and off in a corner of the room is a deeply smelly toad that is filling the room with a nasty odor," Keyes said. "And everybody is holding their cocktails and wearing their ties and they're not talking about this smelly toad but the room is filled with the stink of it." "That stink is political corruption," he said. "That stink is the willingness to undermine what needs to be done for the people so that you can serve your power interest and your political interest. And this stink is in everybody's nostrils."

Keyes is intelligent, he's a brilliant speaker, and he seems to believe most of what he says. I dont agree with everything he says, I agree with the man.

I too am willing to pay reparations- to any african americans who can prove they were slaves. As someone else has already mentioned, given the low per capita income of that community, this wouldnt cost us much in lost taxes, but it might be a 'show of good faith'.

Of course it could never happen. Just how could anyone decide who would get it? There is no testable definition of african american.

	19-08-2004 05:25									#33
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quote: I too am willing to pay reparations- to any african americans who can prove they were slaves. As someone else has already mentioned, given the low per capita income of that community, this wouldnt cost us much in lost taxes, but it might be a 'show of good faith'.

How would this cost one dollar of lost taxes?

	19-08-2004 10:51									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed cool. i just don't see why keyes isn't black, and why this allegation comes from the supposedly non-racist leftist folk in the forums. is a black white supremacist (a la chapelle show) any less black because of his political views?

I didn't say anything racist. There's something wrong with someone who doesn't defend a discriminated and largely impoverished group of people when especially when they come from that group. I don't like the work Uncle Tom, but I don't think it's racist to call someone that.

	19-08-2004 10:57									#35
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quote: I didn't say anything racist.

Yes you did. You can't be 'black' unless you approve of a specific set of actions. That's a racist statement. You believe you have to act a certain way to be a member of a racial set.

quote: There's something wrong with someone who doesn't defend a discriminated and largely impoverished group of people when especially when they come from that group.

Who says he doesn't? Why is there only ONE way to defend a discriminated and impoverished group of people? More attempted backing for an utterly racist statement.

	19-08-2004 11:01									#36
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Oh look, Keyes says that those evil abortionists were responsible for 9/11:

quote: Now, you think it's a coincidence that on Sept. 11th, 2001, we were struck by terrorists an evil that has at its heart the disregard of innocent human life? We who have for several decades killed not thousands but scores of millions of our own children, in disregard of the principle of innocent human life -- I don't think that's a coincidence, I think that's a warning. I don't think that's a coincidence, I think that's a shot across the bow. I think that's a way of Providence telling us, "I love you all; I'd like to give you a chance. Wake up! Would you please wake up?"

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-sen17.html

Very insightful, Alan Falwell.

	19-08-2004 11:04									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: I didn't say anything racist. Yes you did. You can't be 'black' unless you approve of a specific set of actions. That's a racist statement. You believe you have to act a certain way to be a member of a racial set. quote: There's something wrong with someone who doesn't defend a discriminated and largely impoverished group of people when especially when they come from that group. Who says he doesn't? Why is there only ONE way to defend a discriminated and impoverished group of people? More attempted backing for an utterly racist statement.

Whatever. You will have to do more than make a bald assertion if you want to make me look like a racist.

	19-08-2004 11:25									#38
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Quoting your posts works fairly well ...

	19-08-2004 11:49									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Quoting your posts works fairly well ...

Out of context perhaps, which is usual business around here. I didn't say black people are inferior, just the opposite. I only said that some black people were stupid. Right? That's not racist. Try harder.

	19-08-2004 12:07									#40
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As you very well know, the accusation relies on your saying that taking certain ideological position to be necessary to be a "real" black".

	19-08-2004 12:13									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist As you very well know, the accusation relies on your saying that taking certain ideological position to be necessary to be a "real" black".

and? I'm waiting for a connection.

	19-08-2004 12:17									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist As you very well know, the accusation relies on your saying that taking certain ideological position to be necessary to be a "real" black".

What's happening is that people are conflating being a member of the African American (sub) culture and a member of the Black race.

	19-08-2004 14:41									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed quote: It's got more to do with what you know. Black people are more intelligent about certain things. Keyes is not. like what? dancing and having rhythm, playing basketball? does being black grant some sort of genetic memory towards the ills of slavery and discrimination? that they have some ethnic predisposition to poor school performance, crime, and poverty? it's stupid to say someone isn't black because he doesn't "act" black. you stick him in the boonies somewhere where there are racists, they'll lynch him along with colin powell, condi rice, and john white. if being white only entails acting white, keyes should never get discriminated against, i would be a honkie, and bush would have an all-white cabinet.

Thanks for saving me the trouble.

	19-08-2004 15:48									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko How would this cost one dollar of lost taxes?

Because not all african americans are poor. Giving all descendents of slaves a reprieve on taxes would mean some loss of tax revenue (which would have to made up in some fashion).

	19-08-2004 15:58									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Oh look, Keyes says that those evil abortionists were responsible for 9/11: quote: Now, you think it's a coincidence that on Sept. 11th, 2001, we were struck by terrorists an evil that has at its heart the disregard of innocent human life? We who have for several decades killed not thousands but scores of millions of our own children, in disregard of the principle of innocent human life -- I don't think that's a coincidence, I think that's a warning. I don't think that's a coincidence, I think that's a shot across the bow. I think that's a way of Providence telling us, "I love you all; I'd like to give you a chance. Wake up! Would you please wake up?" http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-sen17.html Very insightful, Alan Falwell.

Keyes is a very religious man, perhaps even a fundamentalist. Leaving aside the religious perspective (as I do), are you saying you dont see the hypocrisy of condemning the 9/11 terrorists disregard for human life while conducting over a million abortions yearly in the USA?

	19-08-2004 16:15									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious and? I'm waiting for a connection.

If you cannot work out how saying that all members of a group identified with what is usually taken to be a racial label must hold certain views or be 'fake' can be construed as racist, I'm afraid you have rather more serious problems than can be solved by being infromed on an online forum.

quote: Originally posted by Boshko What's happening is that people are conflating being a member of the African American (sub) culture and a member of the Black race.

Indeed.

	19-08-2004 19:11									#47
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I support reparations.

Only if the plaintiff can prove he has direct lineage to a former slave. And the money should only come from white families that can be proven to have held slaves in their past.

that pretty much means nobody . Because none of this can be proven I bet. I doubt they kept records of the slaves.

	19-08-2004 19:13									#48
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So, Diss, you're basically OK with punishing people for what their ancestors did?

	19-08-2004 19:18									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist So, Diss, you're basically OK with punishing people for what their ancestors did?

yes. here's why.

wealth is passed down from generation to generation. Wealth does not go away when someone dies.

So decendants of slaveholders benefitted from the wealth their ancestors made off the backs of slaves. they should sacrifice some of that wealth to decendants of slaves. If all of this lineage can be proven of course.

I don't care since my family never owned slaves . I would be real upset if I had to pay reperations when my family had nothing to do with slavery. We immigrated after the civil war. And giving tax breaks is the same thing as taking money away from me. I refuse to pay for reparations. The money should come directly from slaveholding families decendants.

	19-08-2004 19:45									#50
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Except of course there were few slave holding families that a cent to their name after the war, in the South anyways.

This is just another attempt for short sighted activists to get a quick warm and fuzzy without actually solving anything. This will have two long term NEGATIVE effects.

1.) We will now have a group of people who are currently considered by many in every racial/economic group tp be leaching off the system (whether they are or not) doing it now without paying anything into it for real. Imagine the feild day certain groups would have with that! Not to mention paying taxes is basically your stake in the government. It is why we care when our taxes are waisted. You are marginalizing the black population politically to a great degree.

2.) Wouldn't it be great to re train all buisnesses in America to hire by race once again! The goal is to stop people from thinking in terms of race PERIOD. Sure the short term MIGHT be more jobs for blacks, but then we are training people to be racists. If you are okay with racism, as long as it is not directed towards blacks, raise your hand. Not like buisnesses will replace their white workers, they will replace all their Latino and Asian ones.

Sava, so your saying to be black you have to allign your self with a self defeating and sub-culture devoid of any chance of success? And are you saying that you steriotype all blacks into that? Jesus man, your sick.

	19-08-2004 19:48									#51
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Sava is completely off base here.

He is basically saying you have to be some community leader if you are black. Which is bullshit and marginally racist.

Why aren't white people expected support the white community then? We aren't expected to do this. There are many white people who support the black community, and they aren't told they must support the white community.

He just can't accept the fact that a black man is a republican.

	19-08-2004 20:04									#52
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That is because he says success as the white mans way, and thus all others should condem themselves to failure out of spite.

	19-08-2004 20:31									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident yes. here's why. wealth is passed down from generation to generation. Wealth does not go away when someone dies. So decendants of slaveholders benefitted from the wealth their ancestors made off the backs of slaves. they should sacrifice some of that wealth to decendants of slaves. If all of this lineage can be proven of course. I don't care since my family never owned slaves . I would be real upset if I had to pay reperations when my family had nothing to do with slavery. We immigrated after the civil war. And giving tax breaks is the same thing as taking money away from me. I refuse to pay for reparations. The money should come directly from slaveholding families decendants.

So how would this work for me since it's certainly true that the american side of my family were landowners in virginia and owned slaves, and the british side (who are my antecedents) didnt own slaves but profitted from the work of the slaves in virginia?

	19-08-2004 20:36									#54
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you pay half as much

in actuality, I prefer the goverment (legislative/executive) not get involved.

What I'd rather see is a slave ancestor take their former slave owner ancestor to court. It probably wouldn't go far, but it's the only realistic and fair solution. Because obviously some slave owners profitted better than others. And as you said, some were completely broke after the war. It would only make sense to get money directly from the family that held your relatives as a slave- not other slave owning families who had nothing to do with your family. And certainly not families who did not have slave owners in their past.

	19-08-2004 20:41									#55
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Dissident:

I expect my Tory reparations cheque in the mail. If you had family in the US in 1776 you owe me BIG. Think of that money of mine you and your fatcat family have been livin' large on. Payback time.

	19-08-2004 20:43									#56
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take me to court then. This is why we have the courts. To settle monetary disputes.

This is what I argue in my post above this one. The legislative and executive branches have no business in this issue. The courts are designed to handle financial disputes. And that includes reparations.

	19-08-2004 20:44									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist If you cannot work out how saying that all members of a group identified with what is usually taken to be a racial label must hold certain views or be 'fake' can be construed as racist, I'm afraid you have rather more serious problems than can be solved by being infromed on an online forum.

You're the one with problems working things out. It's up to you to articulate what you are trying to say. Obviously I don't think it's racist. If I were a racist I wouldn't be a communist. If it makes you feel any better I don't really think any conservatives genuinely care about black people, not just black conservatives.

	19-08-2004 20:58									#58
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So if the judge happened to agree with me then that would be OK and you'd pay up without further fuss? Like it doesn't even matter if the claim is just or not as long as it's legal?

	19-08-2004 21:24									#59
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I'm not sure what Tory reparations are. But I did not have family in the U.S. in 1776

But if my family was slave holders, and we did profit from it. I would have no problem giving restitution to th relatives of the former slaves if the courts ruled in their favour.

	19-08-2004 21:34									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident I'm not sure what Tory reparations are. But I did not have family in the U.S. in 1776 But if my family was slave holders, and we did profit from it. I would have no problem giving restitution to th relatives of the former slaves if the courts ruled in their favour.

What if you didn't have the money?