19-08-2004 21:47									#61
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I just thought it would be appropriate now to tell yall that El (remember him? the first black guy who posted here since General_BT?) left apolyton because of the rampant racism he saw here (and which I see).

Sava, pray to the God you don't believe in that our paths will not cross, because I will whoop your ass.

Last edited by Albert Speer on 19-08-2004 at 21:53

	19-08-2004 21:51									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious What if you didn't have the money?

what do the courts usually do when the defendant has no money? I'm not sure. But I lay my faith in the courts.

	19-08-2004 21:58									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You're the one with problems working things out. It's up to you to articulate what you are trying to say. Obviously I don't think it's racist.

No-one said you did. The question was why others would interpret your statements as racist.

quote: If I were a racist I wouldn't be a communist.

That's a tangent we better don't go down ...

quote: If it makes you feel any better I don't really think any conservatives genuinely care about black people, not just black conservatives.

What gives you the impression I care what you think about conservatives?

	19-08-2004 22:07									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist No-one said you did. The question was why others would interpret your statements as racist.

That's my question. You're suppose to give an articulate answer instead of bald assertion.

quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist What gives you the impression I care what you think about conservatives?

Umm, because I said what color they should be, Duh!

	19-08-2004 22:08									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident what do the courts usually do when the defendant has no money? I'm not sure. But I lay my faith in the courts.

Attach your wages.

	19-08-2004 22:18									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious That's my question. You're suppose to give an articulate answer instead of bald assertion.

You said Keyes was not a real black because of his politics. Since black is commonly understood to be a racial label, that will be understood as a claim that politics are, or should be, determined by politics, which is a racist position.

quote: Umm, because I said what color they should be, Duh!

So, if you said bananas should be yellow, you'd expect me to therefore care about your opinion of bananas?

	19-08-2004 22:34									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist You said Keyes was not a real black because of his politics. Since black is commonly understood to be a racial label, that will be understood as a claim that politics are, or should be, determined by politics, which is a racist position.

I assume you mean that I claim that politics should be determined by color. You're completely missing my point. Black people in America share a common understanding about how things run in white America. That understanding should create a bond between black people. Keyes seems ignorant of this, and doesn't have the same bond because he doesn't give a ****. I didn't mean that he is actually white.

quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist So, if you said bananas should be yellow, you'd expect me to therefore care about your opinion of bananas?

I don't see your point. Obviously you care what I say about conservatives, or you wouldn't be arguing with me.

	19-08-2004 23:04									#68
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quote: Leaving aside the religious perspective (as I do), are you saying you dont see the hypocrisy of condemning the 9/11 terrorists disregard for human life while conducting over a million abortions yearly in the USA?

What I condemn is the disregard for human beings' lives exhibited by the 9/11 terrorists. That doesn't include young fetuses. So no.

Anyways, reasonable people can disagree over abortion. It takes a wild-eyed fanatic to say that God is punishing us through the WTC attacks for abortion.

	19-08-2004 23:07									#69
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I like Alan Keyes, I'd vote for him

I saw him speak at college once, he was just amazing. One of the best speakers I've ever seen. I took a political quiz back in 2000 and to my surprize Keyes came out on top. Came out above Harry Browne even. I think its because I weighted abortion too much, I dunno.

	19-08-2004 23:11									#70
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I don't think I'd vote for Keyes, but I'd certainly prefer him to Obama. Keyes's will tear Obama up in a debate, I think.

As for reparations, I'll just repeat the argument I've had for a long time - descendants of slaves can't double dip. Slavery had the effect of putting them in the United States. Without slavery they probably wouldn't be here. Even though slavery was wrong, they are better off, in most cases, because of it, and I'm not going to give them reparations for slavery as well, which in effect is letting them double dip.

A free boat ride back to West Africa, I would consider, but it's one or the other. If you want the benefit of the living in the US instead of Africa, don't ***** about reparations.

	19-08-2004 23:13									#71
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd A free boat ride back to West Africa, I would consider, but it's one or the other. If you want the benefit of the living in the US instead of Africa, don't ***** about reparations.

People are calling me a racist.

	19-08-2004 23:15									#72
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That isn't a racist comment. I'm not saying I don't like black people. I'm saying they're better off in the US than in Africa. Anyone care to disagree?

	19-08-2004 23:19									#73
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd That isn't a racist comment. I'm not saying I don't like black people. I'm saying they're better off in the US than in Africa. Anyone care to disagree?

It's not really an attack on you David, but I don't consider living in the US a benefit. It's a right.

	19-08-2004 23:22									#74
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I assume you mean that I claim that politics should be determined by color.

You assume wrong.

quote: You're completely missing my point. Black people in America share a common understanding about how things run in white America. That understanding should create a bond between black people. Keyes seems ignorant of this, and doesn't have the same bond because he doesn't give a ****. I didn't mean that he is actually white.

As Boshko said, there's a difference 'tween black people as a racial group, and the African-American community. Which do you mean when you speak of "black people in America"?

If the former, well, it's hard to see how you're not saying that race should determine politics. If the later, well, it should not be hard to realize that people might missunderstand and think you mean the former.

quote: I don't see your point. Obviously you care what I say about conservatives, or you wouldn't be arguing with me.

That would hold if I were arguing with you about conservatives.

	19-08-2004 23:23									#75
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So you think that the US should foot the bill for anyone who wants to immigrate to the US? Come on.

Now, don't get me wrong, I believe in open borders, but I don't believe in the goverment paying for immigration, and I only support open borders when we eliminate the so-called "social safety net", which includes programs such as welfare, food stamps, Medicare, Social Security, etc.

But that aside, I don't think you can dispute my point, and in fact, your comment agrees with it - you believe living in the US IS better than living in Africa. Right?

	19-08-2004 23:32									#76
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quote: As for reparations, I'll just repeat the argument I've had for a long time - descendants of slaves can't double dip. Slavery had the effect of putting them in the United States. Without slavery they probably wouldn't be here. Even though slavery was wrong, they are better off, in most cases, because of it, and I'm not going to give them reparations for slavery as well, which in effect is letting them double dip.

So, if I beat you up (no serious injuries), and give you a couple of thousands of bucks, you have no right to ask for compensation?

	19-08-2004 23:35									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist You assume wrong.

Your comment doesn't make any sense to me then.

quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist As Boshko said, there's a difference 'tween black people as a racial group, and the African-American community. Which do you mean when you speak of "black people in America"?

African Americans

quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist If the former, well, it's hard to see how you're not saying that race should determine politics. If the later, well, it should not be hard to realize that people might missunderstand and think you mean the former.

It doesn't take long for an black person who recently migrated here to understand the way things are here.

quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist That would hold if I were arguing with you about conservatives.

We are arguing about conservatives. I'm claiming that liberal blacks have better qualities than conservative blacks.

	19-08-2004 23:39									#78
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd So you think that the US should foot the bill for anyone who wants to immigrate to the US? Come on. Now, don't get me wrong, I believe in open borders, but I don't believe in the goverment paying for immigration, and I only support open borders when we eliminate the so-called "social safety net", which includes programs such as welfare, food stamps, Medicare, Social Security, etc.

I don't even believe that anyone should be able to migrate here, but the people you are reffering to already live here.

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd But that aside, I don't think you can dispute my point, and in fact, your comment agrees with it - you believe living in the US IS better than living in Africa. Right?

Sure it's better, but I don't understand why you are considering paying their way back to Africa. It's like saying 'if you don't like it go back to Africa. I'll even buy you a ticket.'

	20-08-2004 00:19									#79
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Azazel,

quote: So, if I beat you up (no serious injuries), and give you a couple of thousands of bucks, you have no right to ask for compensation?

You're comparing apples and oranges. If you beat me up, my grandchildren shouldn't be able to ask your grandchildren for compensation. But even that isn't a fair comparison, so let's just stick to the real topic here.

Kid,

quote: I don't even believe that anyone should be able to migrate here, but the people you are reffering to already live here.

Precisely. They are benefiting from slavery in that they live in the United States as a result.

quote: Sure it's better, but I don't understand why you are considering paying their way back to Africa. It's like saying 'if you don't like it go back to Africa. I'll even buy you a ticket.'

My "boat ride back to Africa" comment isn't meant to be taken seriously, it's simply meant to point out the ridiculousness of the demands of people who want reparations.

	20-08-2004 00:54									#80
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Precisely. They are benefiting from slavery in that they live in the United States as a result.

That is just too absurd to comment on.

quote: Originally posted by David Floyd My "boat ride back to Africa" comment isn't meant to be taken seriously, it's simply meant to point out the ridiculousness of the demands of people who want reparations.

Oh, Ok.

	20-08-2004 01:02									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Your comment doesn't make any sense to me then.

Too bad. I've explained it quite clearly, repeatedly.

quote: We are arguing about conservatives. I'm claiming that liberal blacks have better qualities than conservative blacks.

I'm not arguing about conservatives. I'm claiming it's not hard to understand why you get labeled a racist.

	20-08-2004 01:12									#82
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quote: That is just too absurd to comment on.

Not saying slavery was OK, just that for descendants of slaves, it is better for them to be here than in Africa, and odds are without slavery they wouldn't be here.

	20-08-2004 01:40									#83
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quote: You're comparing apples and oranges. If you beat me up, my grandchildren shouldn't be able to ask your grandchildren for compensation.

Why not?

quote: But even that isn't a fair comparison, so let's just stick to the real topic here.

Why not?

Look, I am not for the reparations. I think it's not good for anything. However, people that care so much as you do about "rights" and "property", should.

	20-08-2004 01:50									#84
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quote: Why not?

Don't be stupid. My grandchildren weren't hurt, and your grandchildren didn't hurt anyone.

quote: However, people that care so much as you do about "rights" and "property", should.

Yup, and as soon as you find me a living slave, who was held by a living slaveholder, I'll be all in favor of the slaveholder compensating the slave

	20-08-2004 02:03									#85
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quote: Don't be stupid. My grandchildren weren't hurt, and your grandchildren didn't hurt anyone.

So you won't bug me on the refugees? thanks.

	20-08-2004 02:28									#86
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quote: So you won't bug me on the refugees? thanks.

I'll oppose the concept of the State of Israel, I'll oppose the creation of the State of Israel, and I'll certainly oppose wrongs committed by Israelis against Palestinians (and, naturally, vice versa).

It's also, by the way, very possible to find living Palestinians who were harmed by living Israelis.

So if that's where you're trying to go, don't start it.

	20-08-2004 02:33									#87
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quote: It's also, by the way, very possible to find living Palestinians who were harmed by living Israelis.

So? they're the only ones being compensated?
The whole "they're dead, and thus don't count" makes sense, but it contradicts all other 'libertarian' stuff.

So, if a person takes a loan, should his kids pay it, for example, if he's dead?
Can people harvest organs from the dead?

etc. etc. etc.

	20-08-2004 02:43									#88
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Not saying slavery was OK, just that for descendants of slaves, it is better for them to be here than in Africa, and odds are without slavery they wouldn't be here.

That doesn't justify slavery as I'm sure you would agree, so I don't really know what to say.

	20-08-2004 02:44									#89
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quote: So, if a person takes a loan, should his kids pay it, for example, if he's dead?

No, his estate should.

quote: Can people harvest organs from the dead?

I don't necessarily see a problem with it, I suppose it would depend on who "owns" the corpse, if anyone. Of course, it's a moot point if the corpse is buried in a private cemetary, then the cemetary can ban people from digging on the property without the cemetary's consent.

I wouldn't have a problem with MY organs being harvested, nor do I see why anyone else would, either.

	20-08-2004 02:46									#90
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quote: That doesn't justify slavery as I'm sure you would agree, so I don't really know what to say.

Of course it doesn't justify slavery - it just sorta makes claims for reparations look silly, in my opinion. Without slavery, they'd be worse off (more than likely), so if their argument is that slavery benefited people, and continues to benefit the descendants of those people, that argument applies equally to descandants of slaves.