23-08-2004 10:55									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Joseph So Sadr is now going to play Sadam, in that he runs away and hide for a while and then re-emerge sometime from now and start his crap all over again.

No, the US coalition is playing Sadam. al Sadr wants to play al Sadr - his great grandfather was central in driving the Brits out of Iraq. al Sadr's father was persecuted by Sadam. al Sadr is the freedom fighter, not the USer's puppet government.

	23-08-2004 11:42									#122
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quote: Originally posted by Uncle Sparky No, the US coalition is playing Sadam. al Sadr wants to play al Sadr - his great grandfather was central in driving the Brits out of Iraq. al Sadr's father was persecuted by Sadam. al Sadr is the freedom fighter, not the USer's puppet government.

"Freedom" is not what Sadr has in mind.

Choose a more appropriate term.

	23-08-2004 12:49									#123
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Sadr hates our freedom.

To stack up his militiamen like cord wood.

	23-08-2004 12:51									#124
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Also, US kill figures seem a little inflated to me, if only because the only thing we have is the word of the US in a lot of instances. After all, according to the US military we killed Saddam once, and also Chemical Ali.

This position is backed up by groups which aren't normally friendly to the U.S. military. For instance according to Iraqi Body Count we've already killed everyone in the country, twice.

	23-08-2004 13:35									#125
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quote: Originally posted by Uncle Sparky al Sadr is the freedom fighter, not the USer's puppet government.

he's a dork

	23-08-2004 14:22									#126
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander This position is backed up by groups which aren't normally friendly to the U.S. military. For instance according to Iraqi Body Count we've already killed everyone in the country, twice.

link

I didn't know there were 5,500 to 6,500 inhabitants in Iraq

	23-08-2004 14:58									#127
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quote: "Freedom" is not what Sadr has in mind. Choose a more appropriate term.

Freedom from foreign oppression and occupation. I stand by the choice of words.

quote: quote: Originally posted by Uncle Sparky al Sadr is the freedom fighter, not the USer's puppet government. he's a dork

So is Dubbya. At least al-Sadr is an Iraqi national. Let the Iraqi dorks rule Iraq and the US dorks rule the US. Just as the Bush name IMHO wrongly signifies capable leadership to some USers, the al-Sadr name signifies opposition to oppression to many Iraqis.

	23-08-2004 19:20									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Uncle Sparky Freedom from foreign oppression and occupation. I stand by the choice of words. At least al-Sadr is an Iraqi national. Let the Iraqi dorks rule Iraq and the US dorks rule the US. Just as the Bush name IMHO wrongly signifies capable leadership to some USers, the al-Sadr name signifies opposition to oppression to many Iraqis.

So, Allawi is not an Iraqi dork?

	24-08-2004 01:34									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Uncle Sparky Freedom from foreign oppression and occupation. I stand by the choice of words. So is Dubbya. At least al-Sadr is an Iraqi national. Let the Iraqi dorks rule Iraq and the US dorks rule the US. Just as the Bush name IMHO wrongly signifies capable leadership to some USers, the al-Sadr name signifies opposition to oppression to many Iraqis.

The Shiite leadership including Sistani have all asked his army to lay down their arms and leave the shrine.

I'd say that says alot about playing the cards the right way in the country. Right now the best thing for the Iraqis is to go along with the US and Alawi until things calm down and they can REALLY assume control.

	24-08-2004 01:39									#130
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quote: To stack up his militiamen like cord wood.

They've all got death wishes. They're the militant Islamic form of christian millenarians.

Spooky Mooky.

	24-08-2004 10:50									#131
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I'll apologise in advance for posting on a subject I haven't paid much attention, but...

Tonight I'm watching a repeat of Neil Cavuto's show on Fox and they're talking about how Wall Street wants this Sadr guy dead and I just think that's so weird (in a dark kinda way). I mean, the only reason I have to want the guy dead or jailed is what my government tells me and they're the people who got us into this mess with their "WMD" gotta be eliminated. So now I'm supposed to believe whatever they say? Seriously, I don't believe much of anything coming from government unless I can get corroborating evidence.

	24-08-2004 13:01									#132
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he must be taken out of the picture...

but it must be done by the iraqi's themselves.
otherwise this mess is never going to end.

	24-08-2004 13:34									#133
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And Muslims will think the "Iraqis" who take him out weren't our puppets?

	24-08-2004 13:41									#134
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Things will be far more palatable if Iraqis do it. It will hurt Iraqi nationalism far less, and it will limit the extra support Sadr would get from nationalist Iraqis.

	24-08-2004 13:48									#135
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yup, no easy solutions but that's probably the best (assuming of course this guy deserves it). I suspect they'll all make up

	25-08-2004 05:06									#136
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker yup, no easy solutions but that's probably the best (assuming of course this guy deserves it). I suspect they'll all make up

He had another cleric killed a few months ago who did not agree with his policies I think.

	25-08-2004 05:59									#137
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quote: He had another cleric killed a few months ago who did not agree with his policies I think.

And I can believe your source?

	25-08-2004 06:13									#138
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker And I can believe your source?

My source was CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS etc.

	25-08-2004 06:47									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Things will be far more palatable if Iraqis do it. It will hurt Iraqi nationalism far less, and it will limit the extra support Sadr would get from nationalist Iraqis.

	25-08-2004 09:18									#140
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quote: My source was CNN, ABC, NBC, CBS etc.

Who told them? The government?

	25-08-2004 09:22									#141
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quote: Originally posted by Berzerker Who told them? The government?

Who told you OBL was behind 9/11?

	25-08-2004 09:35									#142
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It's pretty much generally accepted fact that Sadr was involved in the assassination of Khoei.

As for killing him, that'd be bad. I can't say for sure whether the alternative's any better. But all hell would break loose if Sadr gets killed (by ours or Allawi's forces, it doesn't matter).

	25-08-2004 09:39									#143
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I think he's overrated

I think the previous rebellions weren't due to him but more due to US leaderships incompetence in letting the militias and rebellions fester in the first place when they were small and easily put down.

This is the exact same way the LA riots started. It was one small street in South Central that was acting up but the cops fled the scene, when they should have called in reinforcements.

You know the rest of the story.

	25-08-2004 09:52									#144
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He's the head of a milleniarist movement that thinks that the Mahdi's going to come any minute now and smack us down. Basically these guys are like the militia folks, but much, much stronger and with tribal connections and urban slums as a pretty much limitless recruiting ground.

Sadr wasn't ultimately responsible for the Sadrist revolt (ultimately, this is a movement with a substantial societal base that survived a couple decades under Saddam - and was set off by suppression of their press), but he helped to direct it. Killing him would be a sign that all hell is breaking loose. Using the milita analogy, the effect of killing him (especially if the Imam Ali Shrine is destroyed in the process) would be like the Waco incident, but much, much, much worse.

Last edited by Ramo on 25-08-2004 at 09:59

	25-08-2004 10:03									#145
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But there are others who would welcome it after he and his army have perverted the Shine for their own stupid ideals.

He's also a known murderer who has killed a fellow cleric and has destroyed the towns he has sought refuge in.

The guys who are holed up in that shrine are coming out one way or another, and it will be a non issue once they do.

	25-08-2004 10:12									#146
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In the middle and upper class, they'd welcome it. But they already hated Sadr before this. Same thing with most of the people of Najaf, but again that wasn't where his support was.

In places like the slums of Baghdad, they love him. And they love him all the more for standing up to Allawi.

And what are you saying will be a nonissue? The Shrine? The fate of the men in the Shrine?

	25-08-2004 10:21									#147
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quote: Who told you OBL was behind 9/11?

He did... Of course the tapes could have been doctored but given the downside of such a ploy being exposed I doubt the government would try that.

	25-08-2004 10:45									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo In the middle and upper class, they'd welcome it. But they already hated Sadr before this. Same thing with most of the people of Najaf, but again that wasn't where his support was. In places like the slums of Baghdad, they love him. And they love him all the more for standing up to Allawi. And what are you saying will be a nonissue? The Shrine? The fate of the men in the Shrine?

Yep.

Those men can all die and it's not going to be some celebrated moment that is remebered forever.

	25-08-2004 11:00									#149
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No. It'd seriously enrage the entire Shia world (to get a sense of that, most of the gov't we appointed to rule Najaf, who all hate Sadr, resigned because of our reckless policies), and even the Sunni world to some extent (the Mufti of Cairo, essentially the second most influential Sunni cleric, is getting pretty angry for instance). And if there's major destruction to the Shrine, it'll be even worse (it's bad enough that we've been bombing the most sacred cemetary they've got). And the Sadrists, who just had their comrades and relatives martyred, their most sacred site reduced to rubble, will get extraordinarily pissed off. And they'll think that the end of the world is coming. I think that it'd precipitate full-scale Sadrist rebellion. Especially if Sadr gets killed as well.

	25-08-2004 15:22									#150
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor link I didn't know there were 5,500 to 6,500 inhabitants in Iraq

I see they've revised their counts downward since last summer. I guess that means that not only aren't we killing anyone over there, we're actually bringing people back to life. All hail the miracle workers from the USA!