21-08-2004 04:03									#391
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker So far, we always have solved the short run problems then - because we've derived the long run benefits.

Sometimes latter rather than sooner and with long run consequences.

How about we tackle this another time? Is it relevent?

	21-08-2004 04:04									#392
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious When did I say to use shovels instead of bulldozers when bulldozers are more efficient?

Do you intentionally miss the point?? You said earlier that you would get along fine enough without innovation. Well at some point a bulldozer was an innovation.

Avoiding innovation is inefficient.
Failing to reward innovation leads to less innovation. Any first year business psych course covers this and it has been seen in both planned and capitalist style economies . . . as soon as people see the rewards for innovation, suddenly there is more of it.

	21-08-2004 04:06									#393
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Flubber WHY? I like the current system of democratic regulated capitalism ( I think Canada works fine thanks-- lots of problems but less than what I see in what you advocate). If I work hard, I get ahead-- if I don't my ass gets fired .. . seems "fair" to me If I make money that I can save-- I accumulate wealth-- thats fair even if I have more or less than my neighbor The government takes a chunk of my money and uses it to help out those with disabilities, mental and health problems AND those that are too lazy to get off their fat asses-- I find that fair too I like our system and about the only thing that would cause me to bear arms would be the types of enforced "government" as proposed by kidicious. I would fight this until the day I died

Capitalism must be judged on it's record globally. That record is very poor. In the future the problems that exist will just get worse. I would have to say that the biggest benefit of communism has to be the end of war though.

	21-08-2004 04:06									#394
	Remove this text

Ya vel

I want to hear how a society that would prevent me from working a second job would be in accordance with the commonly held idea of what constitutes a democracy?

	21-08-2004 04:09									#395
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Did you not get the memo, Master Flubber?

Thinking is okay. Go ahead and devote some resources to it. Just...you know...make sure you think about stuff that's part of official party dogma.

And don't spend too much time on it.

The benevolent state will do most of your thinking for you.

Cos that's fair.

That's....you know....justice.

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 04:09									#396
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Because you don't trust, the only possible way for their to be justice is to have tight control over every aspect of what everybody in your utopia is doing, how they do it, when and where they do it....the whole ball of wax. And you're saying that ONLY THEN will we have "justice."

This is getting old, and irritating. I advocate collectively organizing our labor, not totalitarianism.

	21-08-2004 04:10									#397
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I would have to say that the biggest benefit of communism has to be the end of war though.

How will that happen with the civil strife from all the Vel's and Flubber's that will fight you .

I assume you are seeing the end of war through Global unification of some sort?? That'll be fun. What if the large Arab population votes to dispossess the Israeli's of their lands ( its a democracy right?)-- Or will your society ban religion?

	21-08-2004 04:12									#398
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Flubber Who's justice?

For the exploited and oppressed people of the world.

	21-08-2004 04:13									#399
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Communism must be judged by its record globally...especially since it's a system all the Reds are chomping at the bit to implement globally.

That record is very poor.

In fact, the only two communist regiemes even worth talking about are China and Cuba.

Cuba is a one man show and a one trick pony, and as a nation, they come out only just barely above Haiti in terms of economic clout.

China has succeeded so far by embracing an increasing number of capitalistic ways.

Go figure.

-=Vel=-

PS to Kid: If it's getting old and irritating, it's because you say one thing and say you mean another. I can't help that. You're the one doing the talking. And you are most certainly NOT simply arguing for collectivizing our labor.

Doing that won't allow you a sufficient amount of power to tell me I can't get a second job, or what types of property I can and cannot own, or how I can use the things I create. Can it?

	21-08-2004 04:13									#400
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: I advocate collectively organizing our labor, not totalitarianism.

So, just communism?

	21-08-2004 04:14									#401
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Capitalism must be judged on it's record globally. That record is very poor. In the future the problems that exist will just get worse. .

Interesting statement when the strongest economies and richest countries have systems of regulated capitalism. Over time I see things only getting better since government is continually improving those regulations. Also shareholders are beginning to take corporatins to task about their practices. You always seem to forget that the root owners of all these corporations are PEOPLE

	21-08-2004 04:15									#402
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious This is getting old, and irritating. I advocate collectively organizing our labor, not totalitarianism.

So

how again do you stop me from getting a second job??

	21-08-2004 04:15									#403
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

btw, before we go on. I would like to emphasize quality over quantity. I'm reponding to a lot of repeatitive stuff here.

	21-08-2004 04:17									#404
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious For the exploited and oppressed people of the world.

oh ya right--- them -- which you would define to include any burger flipper that doesn't make as much as his boss

	21-08-2004 04:18									#405
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Flubber Ya vel I want to hear how a society that would prevent me from working a second job would be in accordance with the commonly held idea of what constitutes a democracy?

Work has to be disributed equally too.

	21-08-2004 04:19									#406
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious btw, before we go on. I would like to emphasize quality over quantity. I'm reponding to a lot of repeatitive stuff here.

well you keep making contradictory assertions.

ie you are not totalitarian yet you would prevent me from getting a second job.

heck you totally prohibited me from becoming a make prostitute .

	21-08-2004 04:20									#407
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

its a bureacratic nightmare to make sure that work is distributed 'equally' how do you quantify work in ways other than money - is and hour of physical labor more valuable than an hour of desk job? there are literally millions of types of jobs out there (just look at monster.com to see) how will the party be able to decide who does what and how much each job is worth?

	21-08-2004 04:20									#408
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Work has to be disributed equally too.

Ohhhhhh....so I can't go work at the factory down the road on the weekends cos there's some poor kid in China who didn't get his full forty in last week?

How's he gonna GET to the factory down the road from me? We gonna pay to fly him over every weekend so it's "fair"????

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 04:21									#409
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Flubber How will that happen with the civil strife from all the Vel's and Flubber's that will fight you . I assume you are seeing the end of war through Global unification of some sort?? That'll be fun. What if the large Arab population votes to dispossess the Israeli's of their lands ( its a democracy right?)-- Or will your society ban religion?

The counter-revolutionaries will be crushed with one swift and final blow.

	21-08-2004 04:22									#410
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

The counter-revolutionaries will be crushed with one swift and final blow.

See Flubber? It's not totalitarian at all....

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 04:22									#411
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The counter-revolutionaries will be crushed with one swift and final blow.

I love how you have the solution for all strife and conflict on earth in a single sentence

	21-08-2004 04:23									#412
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Flubber Over time I see things only getting better since government is continually improving those regulations.

	21-08-2004 04:24									#413
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I love how you have the solution for all strife and conflict on earth in a single sentence

Flubber...now THAT is maximum efficiency at work....

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 04:24									#414
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Flubber Interesting statement when the strongest economies and richest countries have systems of regulated capitalism. Over time I see things only getting better since government is continually improving those regulations. Also shareholders are beginning to take corporatins to task about their practices. You always seem to forget that the root owners of all these corporations are PEOPLE

Competition for resources is going to get real ugly. I can assure you.

	21-08-2004 04:25									#415
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Velociryx The counter-revolutionaries will be crushed with one swift and final blow. See Flubber? It's not totalitarian at all.... -=Vel=-

yup its the non-totalitarian state where some central planner tells me how many hours to work and what wage I can earn-- Also I am not permitted to employ others for any profit .. . and wrongthinking will be DOUBLEPLUS-UNGOOD.

And since it is "democratic' I am sure the planners will allow us to change things

	21-08-2004 04:26									#416
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Competition for resources is going to get real ugly. I can assure you.

Then it'll get real ugly under your utopia too. I can assure you. Unless we wait for replicators to be invented (by the capitalists, of course) before starting the revolution.

But that won't work either, cos then what would we do for "work" ??

I guess we could all just sit around and think a lot....it's not work, but....you know.

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 04:27									#417
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Flubber Interesting statement when the strongest economies and richest countries have systems of regulated capitalism. Over time I see things only getting better since government is continually improving those regulations. Also shareholders are beginning to take corporatins to task about their practices. You always seem to forget that the root owners of all these corporations are PEOPLE

And those people demand profit only, and at all costs.

	21-08-2004 04:28									#418
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

By God (can I say that? Is religion allowed?) Flubber, I think you've got it!

-=Vel=-

	21-08-2004 04:28									#419
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Competition for resources is going to get real ugly. I can assure you.

Why ? take oil-- as it gets more expensive, people consume less, drill for more and look for alternatives--- Right now the high price is leading to reactivation of wells in old fields that had become uneconomic and has triggered many innovations that are leading to enhanced recovery schemes.

So which resources are we about to get competitive for?

	21-08-2004 04:29									#420
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Flubber oh ya right--- them -- which you would define to include any burger flipper that doesn't make as much as his boss

makes less than the stockholder who does not work.