25-08-2004 21:59									#301
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Where does it say it was the SWB that went to ask him? And so what as well-do you think they did not know who he was? Like the people who set that group up would not know.

2. Can you prove any greater amount of collusion between dems and moveon than repugs and this group?

	25-08-2004 22:01									#302
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Can you disprove it or better yet show adinfitum article from the NYT doing expose on what is patently observable considering Sandler works for both.

	25-08-2004 22:01									#303
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian How in the world does what a tinpot aristocrat's public version of events have to do with what was actually going on? -arrian

Arrian, there were no Cambodians in the narrow enclaves near the border. They fled to the cities as reported here by others. Not because of the bombing as alleged by the commies, but because the NV kicked them out.

Sihanouk was the King and beloved by his people. If that makes him someone you cannot trust, then so be it.

And of course, I suspect you trust Kerry.

	25-08-2004 22:04									#304
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Where does it say it was the SWB that went to ask him? And so what as well-do you think they did not know who he was? Like the people who set that group up would not know. 2. Can you prove any greater amount of collusion between dems and moveon than repugs and this group?

Nobody can prove anything.

At this point, the only way to be "fair" is to assume that both sides are either "indirectly" managing these "independent" smear campaigns, or they truely are independent. For either side to claim that theirs is independent and that the others isn't is just a fricken joke.

	25-08-2004 22:07									#305
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Arrian, there were no Cambodians in the narrow enclaves near the border. They fled to the cities as reported here by others. Not because of the bombing as alleged by the commies, but because the NV kicked them out. Sihanouk was the King and beloved by his people. If that makes him someone you cannot trust, then so be it. And of course, I suspect you trust Kerry.

Actually, don't really trust any politician. But I REALLY don't trust unelected "leaders" like Kings, Generals (who are running countries instead of divisions), and Dictators (a King w/o the fancy trappings).

-Arrian

p.s. And of course, I suspect you trust Bush.

	25-08-2004 22:09									#306
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Nobody can prove anything. At this point, the only way to be "fair" is to assume that both sides are either "indirectly" managing these "independent" smear campaigns, or they truely are independent. For either side to claim that theirs is independent and that the others isn't is just a fricken joke.

My point is that given this, the Repubs have for propiety sake asked Ginsberg to resign. No pressure from NYT on the Dems to do likewise given the fact that it is as easily (if not moreso) the ability to draw links back to the party and campaigns. Thus the double standard, espcially considering the length of time the Dems have been complicit vs the short time frame the SBV have been on the scene.

	25-08-2004 22:12									#307
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe My point is that given this, the Repubs have for propiety sake asked Ginsberg to resign. No pressure from NYT on the Dems to do likewise given the fact that it is as easily (if not moreso) the ability to draw links back to the party and campaigns. Thus the double standard, espcially considering the length of time the Dems have been complicit vs the short time frame the SBV have been on the scene.

I'm sorry... I think it's a double standard for either side to be pointing the finger on this one.

	25-08-2004 22:19									#308
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Nobody can prove anything. At this point, the only way to be "fair" is to assume that both sides are either "indirectly" managing these "independent" smear campaigns, or they truely are independent. For either side to claim that theirs is independent and that the others isn't is just a fricken joke.

Yes, the problem Bush's side got into was the level of vehemence of this attack: heck, its exactly what repugs wanted, getting so much press and causing damage- but there is a price to pay for it.
After all, none of MoveOn's ads have gotten this level of notoriety, for a reason- they aren't as vehement., or if they are, the "liberal news channels" don;t rush to create an echo chmaber and make sure everyone knows the smear like the Knightridder papers and Newscorp divisions do.

	25-08-2004 22:24									#309
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w00t.

Attachment: temp_unfit_for_command.jpg
This has been downloaded 82 time(s).

	25-08-2004 22:38									#310
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Actually, don't really trust any politician. But I REALLY don't trust unelected "leaders" like Kings, Generals (who are running countries instead of divisions), and Dictators (a King w/o the fancy trappings). -Arrian p.s. And of course, I suspect you trust Bush.

Yes, I do trust Bush. I feel his honesty and sincerity distinquish him from both is predecessor who was and is a notorious liar, and Kerry, who is apparently has no character or integrity whatsoever.

	25-08-2004 22:59									#311
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos However, we were not exactly bombing population centers either. We were bombing some of the most rural areas of the country. Not only that, for the most part we were bombing the same places over again.

The rural areas of Cambodia are not like the rural areas of America. There was no part of Cambodia that with within a B-52 strike "box" that did not have a village in it. Within the first half year of the bombing campaign (both "secret" and open), the number of rural refugees fleeing the area doubled the population of Phnom Pen, from 600,000 to 1,200,000. Within a year, there were over a million refugees in the capital. Out of a population of seven million, nearly two million were refugees.

There was, necessarily, a corresponding drop in agricultural output, and famine was the result.

	25-08-2004 23:00									#312
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What bothers me about Bush is that he seems to be falling into the same trap as his father. The major issue in the '92 campaign was Clinton's integrity. Bush I ignored that issue, so much so, that it became a non issue. But in the end, Clinton's lack of integrity came back to bite him and his presidency big time.

"W" is now doing the same it seems with Kerry. He is saying nothing about the controversy over Kerry's war and antiwar record. I think, rather, that he ought to call Kerry out to explain some of these charges concerning his war record and to apologized to his brethren for what he said as an antiwar leader. What he is doing, ignoring the issue, is starting to really piss me off.

	25-08-2004 23:02									#313
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The rural areas of Cambodia are not like the rural areas of America. There was no part of Cambodia that with within a B-52 strike "box" that did not have a village in it. Within the first half year of the bombing campaign (both "secret" and open), the number of rural refugees fleeing the area doubled the population of Phnom Pen, from 600,000 to 1,200,000. Within a year, there were over a million refugees in the capital. Out of a population of seven million, nearly two million were refugees. There was, necessarily, a corresponding drop in agricultural output, and famine was the result.

Now we understand where you got the figure "600,000" "killed" or rendered "homeless."

	25-08-2004 23:08									#314
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Ned, you do realize that when people become refugees, they don't produce food any more. When two million people in a country stop producing food, people starve . . . to death.

In addition, hundreds, maybe thousands, of villages were bombed. Contrary to Sianouk's assertion, Eastern Camobida di have villages. Contrary to other assertions, the same areas were not bombed over and over again. As the Vietnamese and KR fled west, the bombing followed them. In addition, because the bombing campaign had no effect on the war in Vietnam, the US command though that hand't hit the VC command structure, which was assumed to be equivalent of the U.S. command structure. If bombing one area didn't get it, then they had to bomb another area.

	25-08-2004 23:09									#315
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Kerry has nothing to apologize for. The war was wrong, criminal, and evil. All righteous human beings opposed the war.

	25-08-2004 23:09									#316
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yes, the problem Bush's side got into was the level of vehemence of this attack: heck, its exactly what repugs wanted, getting so much press and causing damage- but there is a price to pay for it. After all, none of MoveOn's ads have gotten this level of notoriety, for a reason- they aren't as vehement., or if they are, the "liberal news channels" don;t rush to create an echo chmaber and make sure everyone knows the smear like the Knightridder papers and Newscorp divisions do.

So now the arguement turns from equal coverage issue to one of efficacy of the attack?

Thats a weak counter-arguement considering we both were in agreement that this was going to be a mud bath from both sides.

Admit it NYT is so far in bed with Kerry they cease to be a reliable source.

	25-08-2004 23:13									#317
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Admit it NYT is so far in bed with Kerry they cease to be a reliable source.

Not likely.

	25-08-2004 23:13									#318
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe So now the arguement turns from equal coverage issue to one of efficacy of the attack?

Ahh, yes. Welcome to the 21st century old man- its all about the level of media coverage and media hype.

quote: Thats a weak counter-arguement considering we both were in agreement that this was going to be a mud bath from both sides.

Yes, but there is mud, and there is sticking a few stones and broken glass and extra-nasty bits into the mudball to do seriously nasty damage.

quote: Admit it NYT is so far in bed with Kerry they cease to be a reliable source.

to tired strawman.

	25-08-2004 23:25									#319
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Probably more telling than anything else is the responses from the prospective candidates. Faced with unrelenting attack from Dems including F911, Bush chose to simply say "I respect the right of these people to say what they will" (or words to that effect). Given the little girl whining and demands of Kerry to have the books pulled etc. which one has weathered the pressures of mud slinging better?

	25-08-2004 23:34									#320
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Oh, god, that whinny crap about F9/11....

quote: Given the little girl whining and demands of Kerry to have the books pulled etc. which one has weathered the pressures of mud slinging better?

The difference between the two, besides format, is the ability to substantiate. I don;t know if you have seen F9/11- I myself was not the biggest fa and I said it, but Moore weaves the very words and images of the Bush admin., and can show documents which he then weaves into his own editorial piece. That is what F9/11 is, a huge 2 hour op-ed against Bush.

This is a campaign ad making claims, very serious claimsabout his credibility, which happen to, oops, be unsubstantiated..darn.....

I am sure Ann Coulter in her column says much worse things about Kerry than this group of Bozo's, but like F9/11, those columns are giant op-eds. In the end Moore makes a case with a few claims, BUT he does not say "THIS IS THE TRUTH!" These ads do that- there is always a difference in scale.

I still find it absurd you and Ming and others try to conflate F9/11 with these ads. You know, a few conservatives tried to play this documentary against Moore- last time I checked it flopped, no one cared. In the end, F9/11 was a commercial and political venture, while the ad. was only a political stunt.

	25-08-2004 23:35									#321
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Yes, the problem Bush's side got into was the level of vehemence of this attack: heck, its exactly what repugs wanted, getting so much press and causing damage- but there is a price to pay for it. After all, none of MoveOn's ads have gotten this level of notoriety, for a reason- they aren't as vehement., or if they are, the "liberal news channels" don;t rush to create an echo chmaber and make sure everyone knows the smear like the Knightridder papers and Newscorp divisions do.

But let's remember to throw F911 into the picture...
While "some" have argued it's not the same, that's a lame argument

Again, both sides are EQUALLY AS BAD... there is NO moral high ground here for either side.

	25-08-2004 23:44									#322
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quote: Originally posted by GePap In the end Moore makes a case with a few claims, BUT he does not say "THIS IS THE TRUTH!"

By virtue of his claim to prosecute anyone for libel he has in fact claimed "THIS IS THE TRUTH!".

The fact that he can't followup on his claim says volumes about the veracity of his own misrepresented work.

Besides your response has little to do with the way in which the prospective candidates actually responded to critique.

Awaiting the obligatory Bush had his myrmidons do his dirty work in crying foul.

	25-08-2004 23:47									#323
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quote: Originally posted by Ming Again, both sides are EQUALLY AS BAD... there is NO moral high ground here for either side.

That +10 Shield of Cynicism works wonders, doesn't it?

	25-08-2004 23:50									#324
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quote: Yes, I do trust Bush. I feel his honesty and sincerity distinquish him from both is predecessor who was and is a notorious liar, and Kerry, who is apparently has no character or integrity whatsoever.

That you believe this is incredible to me. That a solid chunk of the voting public (somewhere near 50% of them) believes this scares the **** out of me.

-Arrian

	25-08-2004 23:52									#325
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT That +10 Shield of Cynicism works wonders, doesn't it?

Damn Straight

Over time, I've learned to believe the worst... I'm more likely to be pleasently surprised, and will rarely be disappointed

	25-08-2004 23:54									#326
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Just keep it away from the little ones... trust is good for them.

	25-08-2004 23:57									#327
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quote: Originally posted by JohnT Just keep it away from the little ones... trust is good for them.

My little ones are no longer really little.
My 16 year old is probably as cynical as I am (good for her) and my 9 year old is starting to realize that real life isn't a fantasy movie or book. She is making good progress

	26-08-2004 00:00									#328
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so you are raising them up to be republicans?

how...

Evil



Jon Miller

	26-08-2004 00:01									#329
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quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe By virtue of his claim to prosecute anyone for libel he has in fact claimed "THIS IS THE TRUTH!". The fact that he can't followup on his claim says volumes about the veracity of his own misrepresented work. Besides your response has little to do with the way in which the prospective candidates actually responded to critique. Awaiting the obligatory Bush had his myrmidons do his dirty work in crying foul.

Yet again- he said he would attack people for libel if they claimed he made claims he did not. Lets take the "7 minutes"- he never says "Bush was thinking this", he gave 'posibilities' and used it as a vehicle for his Saudi portions.

As for how each candidate takes the attacks- yes, Bush hs his minions do the talking- the echo chamber in Fox and other righting pieces about F9/11 was immense.

Bush gets to use surrogates for everything- that is one of the perks of incumbancy and the presidency. That and a friendly press.

	26-08-2004 00:01									#330
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personally I wish I had seen less and was less cynical and more innocent

it is a state of mind that I wish to return to, and sometimes succeed

despite the diappointment, you enjoy life more

Jon Miller