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Apolyton Civilization Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.0.3 Apolyton Civilization Forums > Miscellaneous > Archive > Off-Topic-Archive > Way to go Spain - aka The results of giving in to terrorist demands
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Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 30-08-2004 21:14
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Ditto, of course, the DPRK?

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
King
Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:35
  Old Post 30-08-2004 21:34 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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Absolutely.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:35
  Old Post 30-08-2004 21:37
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lol, pwnzed.

Oncle Boris is offline Oncle Boris
Prince
Once in a brown moon
Aug 2001
time: 00:35
  Old Post 30-08-2004 23:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
Just my opinion that France hasn't gotte over their fall from a world power, a first rate world mover one anyways. They want the position the US has in the Western world now, the one they held for centuries before. The cultural icon of the civilization. For that reason they always have to SOUND different from us, even if they actually are not.


Errr... France still has lots of interests to defend. You really think that professional diplomats and policymakers waste time with psychological complexes? That Realpolitik can be psychanalyzed like a human being?

Oh and BTW, the French people is indeed a lot different than the American one. Not perfect, but overall much less retarded.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 31-08-2004 12:08
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Absolutely.


Well, bully for you. For once (or is this, remarkably, twice) thumbs up!

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 31-08-2004 12:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Which French? Remember, when we landed in Africa in 1943, the French open fire on us. They certainly do not treat us like liberators or as allies.

Oh, you mean the troops that were under the direct orders of Vichy France, and thus under the inderect orders of Germany?

quote:
Ditto much of France itself in 1944. The French did not appear to be very happy to see us despite the newsreel footage we often see from Normandy. They rather appear to be behaving as if we conquered France rather than liberated it.

Watch some footage from Paris' liberation. What you are saying is incredibly false. The only places that weren't overjoyed were the ones the allies razed to the ground, i.e some cities in Normandy.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 31-08-2004 12:36
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To reply to the usual question: "where is the outrage?", here's a list of people and organizations who call for the immediate liberation of the two French journalists:

- The whole French political class (duh)
- The French Muslim community, strongly opposed to the headscarf ban
- French Islamist, and outspoken headscarf-ban opponent Tariq Ramadan
- Yassir Arafat
- Arabic League's secretary Amr Moussa
- The "Communauté des Oulémas" (no idea of how it's called in English), the main Sunni organization.
- Jordan's main Islamist party
- The Union of Arabic Journalists and the Syndicate of Egyptian Journalists
- Al Jazeera

Also, the Muslim Brotherhood recuses the link between the headscarf ban and this terror action.

The only Arabic political figure who rings a different bell is Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi, who says it proves a country can't be neutral in Iraq, and France has to become militarily involved.

Menlas is offline Menlas
Chieftain
Lyon
Feb 2003
time: 06:35
  Old Post 31-08-2004 12:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Patroklos
Of course there was a little more than that, nice try though. Luckly we have Spiffor here to forstall any steriotypes about the common sence of Frenchmen origninating with you.




Funny, coming from a guy whose main "argument" against the French is basically : "France has been much harsher against America than America against France". Without backing it with any fact, of course.

Wow, common sense indeed

Comrade Tassadar is offline Comrade Tassadar
Settler

Aug 2005
time: 05:35
  Old Post 31-08-2004 12:42 Visit Comrade Tassadar's homepage!
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Well, for one, the French did steal "red, white, and blue" from the Americans.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 31-08-2004 12:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
Well, for one, the French did steal "red, white, and blue" from the Americans.

How dare you!

We stole it from the Swedish and Danish flags, like everybody else!

Sir Ralph is offline Sir Ralph
Emperor
Long live teh Schwampel!
Dec 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 31-08-2004 12:47
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The Russians stole it too. Bastards.

EDIT: Before I forget it: The Belgians clearly stole from us. But they mixed up the order. They can't even steal properly, where has this world come to...

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 31-08-2004 12:50
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Spiffor, all the French government has done is ask that the hostages be released. They have not offered to rescind the headscarf ban, which is a good thing from the point of view of standing up to the terrorists. But it is a bad thing from the point of view of Muslims.

I am clearly of two minds here. However, I wish France the best and I hope the two Frenchmen are rescued or released.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 31-08-2004 13:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
But it is a bad thing from the point of view of Muslims.

Well, we are being massively supported by Muslim organizations. That's because they're pragmatic: they know this kind of terrorist actions can only undermine the attempts of our Muslims (and of our non-Muslims too) who are opposed to this law.

The French Muslims are mightily embarassed right now. They planned a big demo on thursday, the long-planned date at which the law will be applied. With the terorrists trying to pressure us, our Muslims have now trouble really going to this long-planned demo, because they don't want to look they're in bed with the terrorists.

Our Muslim organizations have their flaws, but they understand we are a democracy, and policy changes with votes and with communication, not with terror.

Ned is offline Ned
Prince
of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:35
  Old Post 31-08-2004 13:57
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Yeah, Spiffor, I have the same conflict as they do. I support lifting the ban, but also do not want to cave into the terroists' demands.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 31-08-2004 14:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Yeah, Spiffor, I have the same conflict as they do. I support lifting the ban, but also do not want to cave into the terroists' demands.

The best way is not to change your minds or your ways then. As a foreigner, there is very little you can do about the headscarf ban (just like I can do very little about American policies that displease me, like gun rights for example). However, what you are doing is the good, democratic thing to do: you discuss about it, you share your point of view.

French Muslims also use democratic tools to see this law change, and they will have more effectiveness, as they can vote and as they can protest. I hope they'll continue to do what they did until today: to democratically fight a law they oppose. And I hope the terrorists won't change anything about their methods, except maybe modify the timing.

Dry is offline Dry
Prince
Brussels
Sep 2000
time: 06:35
  Old Post 31-08-2004 15:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Ralph
EDIT: Before I forget it: The Belgians clearly stole from us. But they mixed up the order. They can't even steal properly, where has this world come to...

That's the problem time travel had to face in that time.
When, back in 1831, we send our time travellers to find a new flag, they brought back the Flag of the German Confederation of 1848.
The problem was the time machine of then was not 100% reliable and the flag came back with mixed up color order.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Belgium
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Germany

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:35
  Old Post 31-08-2004 15:24
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a little threadjack: what's the problem with gun rights, spiff?

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
Emperor
Caught in a tuna net
Jan 1970
time: 05:35
  Old Post 31-08-2004 16:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Yeah, Spiffor, I have the same conflict as they do. I support lifting the ban, but also do not want to cave into the terroists' demands.


So you feel for the Spaniards at their election? They wanted to vote left wing, but that would be caving into demands. In the end they ignored the terrorists and did what was in their heart.

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:35
Angry  Old Post 31-08-2004 19:43
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quote:
Militants: 12 Nepalese 'killed'

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- An Islamic Web site has posted gruesome still images and videos of what it says is the killing of 12 Nepalese hostages by a militant group in Iraq.

Footage posted on Tuesday showed one beheading and 11 others apparently shot from an assault rifle at the back of the head.

The video shows a masked man in desert camouflage apparently slitting the throat of a blindfolded man lying on the ground, The Associated Press reported.

The blindfolded man moans and a shrill wheeze is heard, then the masked man displays the head to the camera before resting it on the decapitated body.

CNN is working to confirm the authenticity of the images. The still images appear to have been taken from the video.

The Nepalese Foreign Ministry in Kathmandu said it had no official confirmation of what appears to have taken place.

"We have carried out the sentence of God against 12 Nepalese who came from their country to fight the Muslims and to serve the Jews and the Christians ... believing in Buddha as their God," said a statement on the site by Jaish Ansar al-Sunna.

The claims came as another Islamic group held two French journalists hostage, threatening to kill them unless the government of France revokes a law banning Muslim children from wearing headscarves in public schools. (Full story)

The Web site statement vowed to keep fighting the Americans in Iraq.

"America today has used all its force, as well as the help of others, to fight Islam under the so-called war on terror, which is nothing but a vicious crusade against Muslims," the statement said.

At the end of the four-minute video, a man reads another statement off-camera, vowing to fight the Iraqi government.

"We will work on exterminating them until the last fighter," he said.

Iyad Mansoor, director-general of the Morning Star Company, a Jordan-based services firm which had contracted the 12 Nepalese workers for jobs in Iraq, said he had no information on the beheading of the Nepalese captives.

"I'm shocked to hear such news," he told AP. "The last I heard was that the Nepalese government was in contact with Iraqi clergymen and others in an effort to set the 12 men free."

Journalist Akhilesh Upadhyay told CNN from Nepal that the news had been greeted from the men's families with shock.

Sudarshan Khadka, 23, the elder brother of hostage Ramesh Khadka, 19, told him he had just heard the news and was not sure whether it was true but was "stunned." He did not know how to break the news to his parents, he said.

Jaish Ansar al-Sunna said on August 23 it had kidnapped 12 Nepali citizens "for their cooperation with the United States in fighting Islam and its people" and described them as working for a Nepalese company that works under a Jordanian firm doing business in Iraq.

Last week a videotape was aired on the Arabic-language television network Al-Jazeera purportedly showing the 12.

Nepalese Minister of State for Foreign Affairs Prakash Sharan Mahat said then that his government had asked Al-Jazeera to help it establish a relationship with the militant group behind the abductions.

In that video, a masked man wearing military fatigues aimed a machine gun at the men.


http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast...main/index.html

I guess those crusading, imperialist Nepalese just got what they deserved, huh?

Drake Tungsten is offline Drake Tungsten
Prince
Knee deep in alien womyn...
Oct 2001
time: 14:35
  Old Post 31-08-2004 19:49
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Why didn't my last post bump this thread?

:) Smiley is offline :) Smiley
Emperor
USCA, Berkeley
Feb 2001
time: 21:35
  Old Post 31-08-2004 20:11 Visit :) Smiley's homepage!
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It has been 48 hours, has anything happened?

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 02-09-2004 03:30
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Nope.

There are opposite rumors, speaking about a possible release at short term, or a possible execution at short term.

France is using all its diplomatic tools to get the terrorists to release the hostages, and most Islamic countries and organizations have now called for the release. However, it seems the terrorists are now trying to milk the hostages for what they can be worth.

I would suppose they are trying to get some really nice cookie from the French diplomacy, and I'd imagine they are supported by the "respectable" organizations with whom they interact (since it's obvious these organizations will too recieve something for their vocal support to us)

Verto is offline Verto

King

Mar 2002
time: 23:35
  Old Post 02-09-2004 03:34
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Negotiating with these people only makes them feel legitimate.

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
Emperor
Caught in a tuna net
Jan 1970
time: 05:35
  Old Post 02-09-2004 03:39
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Which will be the first country to say, "Don't bother taking hostages, cos if you do then we will just say, '**** it! Kill 'em! We don't deal with **** like you! We would rather see our people die than talk to ****heads like you!', and while we're saying that we'll have so much intel going into finding you ****ers that you and your hostages will be ground zero for the next mushroom cloud shown on Al-Jazeera".

If you make that policy clear to your citizens as well, then it could go down ok.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 02-09-2004 03:43
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Sorry Dauphin, but I stopped ignoring you.

Despite your request to ignore you, it was just too much a bore to always click to see your posts, as they're all interesting.

MRT144 is offline MRT144
Chieftain
Seattle Washington
Oct 2002
time: 21:35
  Old Post 02-09-2004 03:50
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dauphin has the right attitude

OliverFA is offline OliverFA
King
Leeds, UK
Sep 2002
time: 06:35
  Old Post 02-09-2004 03:52
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quote:
Originally posted by MRT144
wait...explain what this has to do with spain.


Terorism attack Spain ---> Spanish vote a government that do everything terrorist demands without even asking anything in return.

Those days I´m ashamed of being Spanish "our" acts retiring from Iraq are telling terrorists that their methods (attacking innocent people) work.

Now the super Minister of Defense forbids Spanish soldiers in Afganistan to shot against prisonners that are escaping. How are they supposed to keep the prisoners?

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 02-09-2004 03:54
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quote:
Originally posted by OliverFA
Now the super Minister of Defense forbids Spanish soldiers in Afganistan to shot against prisonners that are escaping. How are they supposed to keep the prisoners?

By beating them, by watching them more closely, or by shooting with sleep-projectiles.

Do you know that it is possible to keep prisoners in a prison without using lethal means?

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
Emperor
CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:35
  Old Post 02-09-2004 03:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Verto
Negotiating with these people only makes them feel legitimate.

There is no open negociation with them, and I'd imagine the secret negociations aren't really easy to set up as well.

The terrorist may very well get money or other nice cookies in the end. They may even end up with somehting that will look symbolical to their audience in Iraq. But since no open negociation will take place, they can't get legitimacy.

Az is offline Az
King
MACEDONIA - It's the name of the sovereign country to the north of Greece
Apr 2000
time: 07:35
  Old Post 02-09-2004 04:09
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define "legitimacy".

 
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