02-09-2004 04:14									#181
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Do you know that it is possible to keep prisoners in a prison without using lethal means?

Er... are you talking seriously?

Of course, any army of any civilized country (and Spain is still a civilized country until we get conquered again and change our name to Al-Andalus) will try to use the force against the prisoners only in the extreme case. But this is something that everyone knows. It is not needed that the defense minister gives special instructions about it. On the contrary, the only effect that those orders have is to seriously handicap the Spanish soldiers in a hostile environment.

By the way, I have changed my mind. We will not get conquered again. It will happen in a different way. Terrorists will kidnap someone and ask Spain to become part of Islam in the exchange for his/her freedom. And the Spanish government will do as told of course.

	02-09-2004 04:20									#182
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Last time I was in Spain every time we met an older person and they realized some of us spoke Spanish they just went on and on about how this whole socialist thing was from the stupid youth of the country being reationary. Pretty heated about the whole thing.

Then again they might have been placating the American sailors, wanted me to buy more jamon cerano. Sooooo Good.

	02-09-2004 04:21									#183
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA By the way, I have changed my mind. We will not get conquered again. It will happen in a different way. Terrorists will kidnap someone and ask Spain to become part of Islam in the exchange for his/her freedom. And the Spanish government will do as told of course.

I can understand you feel bad because your dear leader lost the election, but even Ned wouldn't say what you are saying. Just like France didn't surrender to these terrorists, Spain wouldn't surrender to the first little thing like that. You shouldn't believe that your fantasies are the truth.

	02-09-2004 04:36									#184
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Last time I was in Spain every time we met an older person and they realized some of us spoke Spanish they just went on and on about how this whole socialist thing was from the stupid youth of the country being reationary. Pretty heated about the whole thing.

I understand that they want to make the youth responsible for that. Traditionally young people are less aware of the dangers and more likely to do crazy things. But it was not only young people who voted socialists. After all they had almost 40% of the votes.

But there is some part of truth in what they say. The Spanish educative system is completely controlled by people who sympathize with socialists (or separatists. Some even are socialists and separatists at the same time) and many young people just grow hihgly influenced by the liberal (liberal in American way of the term, not European) ideas that the teachers tell them at school. The conservative government is highly responsible of this for not having changed it during the 8 years they were in power. Letīs hope they learned the lesson.

But not everything is lost. Some of us despite being young donīt share their ideas. And in the European elections the difference between socialists and conservatives was less than 2%. Amazing recovery for a party that had just lost the government.

quote: Then again they might have been placating the American sailors, wanted me to buy more jamon cerano. Sooooo Good.

Jamon serrano is not guilty of what Spanish people do, so I think that you can (I mean, you should) enjoy it anyway

	02-09-2004 05:19									#185
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Huraay, Spain!

	02-09-2004 07:11									#187
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov as I always claimed: Terrorism is just another method of political bartering.

You want a Nobel Prize for that?

This is very old news.

I got news for you....

War is just another method of political bartering. It cannot be outlawed, and the only way to stop it is with self-defense.

Terrorism is a form of self-defense.

	02-09-2004 18:43									#188
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NeOmega, terrorism is a form of self-defense?

I clearly think it is a form of illegal warfare, and is highly "offensive" in its nature. I use "offensive" in both senses of that word.

	02-09-2004 18:59									#189
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and your little war in iraq ?

against all international conventions ?

is this legal then ?

and if you can prove it to be so, is it self defence ?

	02-09-2004 19:26									#190
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis and your little war in iraq ? against all international conventions ? is this legal then ? and if you can prove it to be so, is it self defence ?

Dannubis, UN Resolution 1441.

	02-09-2004 19:32									#191
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1441 threatened with consequences, but did not legitimate the United States (with cronies or without) to march in unilaterally. It does not make the nation in question free for aggressive acts at will. If China had marched in and had left the United States out, would that have been ok too?

	02-09-2004 19:36									#192
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph 1441 threatened with consequences, but did not legitimate the United States (with cronies or without) to march in unilaterally. It does not make the nation in question free for aggressive acts at will. If China had marched in and had left the United States out, would that have been ok too?

Your opinion. You are entitled to it.

	02-09-2004 19:38									#193
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Answer my question, please.

	02-09-2004 19:47									#194
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quote: Originally posted by dannubis and your little war in iraq ? against all international conventions ? is this legal then ?

About as legal as your little war in Kosovo against all international conventions.

	02-09-2004 19:49									#195
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The Kosovo war was illegal as well, true. But as far as I recall, it was the US who led him, with the Europeans following unwilling and halfhearted. But that doesn't make their case more just in any way.

	02-09-2004 19:56									#196
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China marching in without us?

The problem, with China, of course, is that it is not democratic and one would not expect China to install a democratic government. But if Germany had done it without the US, OK.

	02-09-2004 19:59									#197
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I seem to have failed to remember, that 1441 demanded the installation of a democratic government. Thanks for the heads up.

With other words, a Chinese (or Indian, or Russian, or Syrian, or whatever) intervention would have been just as legitimate as the US one.

	02-09-2004 20:02									#198
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph The Kosovo war was illegal as well, true. But as far as I recall, it was the US who led him, with the Europeans following unwilling and halfhearted. But that doesn't make their case more just in any way.

You know, Sir Ralph, I find the double-standard of the Iraq war opponents stunning. With Kosovo, Clinton did not even go through the motions of seeking UN approval. Ditto Congress. He just went to war on his own motion.

Bush got both UN 1441 and Congressional approval. He even tried to get a second resolution through the UNSC to give Saddam one more last chance to satisfy the French. Bush went out of his way to satisfy the legal norms in a case where our own national interests were at stake.

Clinton openly spat on Congress and the UN and HE is the hero while Bush the person who most respected the UN and Congress is villified?

All this goes to show is that the left, US or Europe, cannot be taken seriously on these topics.

	02-09-2004 20:04									#199
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph I seem to have failed to remember, that 1441 demanded the installation of a democratic government. Thanks for the heads up. With other words, a Chinese (or Indian, or Russian, or Syrian, or whatever) intervention would have been just as legitimate as the US one.

As I said, it depends on whether the actor was a democratic nation.

	02-09-2004 20:10									#200
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quote: Originally posted by Ned You know, Sir Ralph, I find the double-standard of the Iraq war opponents stunning. With Kosovo, Clinton did not even go through the motions of seeking UN approval. Ditto Congress. He just went to war on his own motion. Bush got both UN 1441 and Congressional approval.

UN approval is it, what counts. Your Congress has no weight whatsoever on the international scene.

About double standard, did you read my above post, where I condemn the Kosovo war as just as wrong as the Iraq war? Where is the double standard?

quote: He even tried to get a second resolution through the UNSC to give Saddam one more last chance to satisfy the French. Bush went out of his way to satisfy the legal norms in a case where our own national interests were at stake.

He didn't get the second resolution and went to war anyway.

quote: Clinton openly spat on Congress and the UN and HE is the hero while Bush the person who most respected the UN and Congress is villified?

I highly disrespect Clinton for Kosovo.

quote: All this goes to show is that the left, US or Europe, cannot be taken seriously on these topics.

No comment.

	02-09-2004 20:11									#201
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Where is the double standard?

In Europe at large.

	02-09-2004 20:14									#202
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quote: Originally posted by Ned As I said, it depends on whether the actor was a democratic nation.

You are a lawyer (at least I believe you are). You should know better, and I truly believe you do.

You try to justify the war with resolution 1441, which says nothing about installing a democratic government, or having the "consequences" dealt out by democratic nations only. China (in my hypothetical case) would have been just as legitimate to use 1441 as excuse for an intervention as the US. After all, the Chinese are a big nation and permanent member of the UNSC, jsut like the US.

	02-09-2004 20:28									#203
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Sir Ralph, I believe the US should only support UNSC actions, or actions taken by permanent member on behalf of the UN, that advance democracy or human rights, or that in some clear fashion restores order.

If China were to invade Iraq on behalf of the UNSC, I would be concerned because I do not trust China to bring democracy to Iraq. I rather think they would impose communism.

However, if China were to act in the Korean situation where there already was a pre-existing communist government, I would have lesser concerns due to the fact that Korea already was communist.

Back to 1441, I think the US and Britain, who were the major complaining parties wrt 1441, had full rights to enforce it without a second resolution.

	02-09-2004 20:31									#204
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Your opinion. You are entitled to it.

	02-09-2004 20:39									#205
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Ned an international law question,

Its never been brought to international court, but the preceeding resolutions all of which were found to be in material breech all referred as did 1441 to previous resolutions. In several of these it allowed for member states to sever the state of cease fire that existed from Gulf War 1.

In your opinion, does the presence of a new resolution supercede and make void the preceeding resolutions or (as was the case with Saddam) does the fact that everyone of them being in material breach allow for use of penalties prescribed in any of the previous resolutions especially considering their continued reference in the following resolutions.

It was the case the Brits were making but were not comfortable bringing forward.

	02-09-2004 20:43									#206
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Your opinion. You are entitled to it.

Touche.

	02-09-2004 20:50									#207
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Ogie, a later resolution supersedes an earlier resolution if it expressly states that it does or if a provision of a later resolution is inconsistent with an earlier provision. Also it may be argued that earlier provisions may be effectively nullified by changes in the status quo that had persisted for some time without complaint or action. In property law this is known as adverse possession which can give a trespassor legal title to property.

	02-09-2004 20:59									#208
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Have you had the opportunity to read the resolutions. IIRC they did not expressly state they superceded previous ones (this might be a quirk tho' of UN by laws). Nor did their penalty provisions ever expressly rule out previous resolutions.

That then leaves the 12 year period of status quo which in essence was not status quo in light of continued rebukes in the form of ongoing resolutions.

	02-09-2004 21:00									#209
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA Terorism attack Spain ---> Spanish vote a government that do everything terrorist demands without even asking anything in return.

You missed the part in the middle where the Spanish government lied about who was responsible for the attack. Why is it that everyone who parrots out this "Spanish gave in to the terrorists!" line never takes this into account? Do you really think a government that so brazenly lies to its people over something as serious as a terrorist attack deserves to be reelected?

	02-09-2004 21:25									#210
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quote: Originally posted by optimus2861 Do you really think a government that so brazenly lies to its people over something as serious as a terrorist attack deserves to be reelected?

Lying is okay if it serves conservative ends because the masses are stupid and would elect leftists if they knew the truth.