30-08-2004 21:30									#91
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Both Kahn and Alexander had awesome logistical skills. I think Alexander had good skills in actual battle, but the Mongol battle plan seems pretty simple.

Again, I say Napolean had the best overall skills that a general needs to be successfull. I don't think Alexander would have done as well in Napolean's situation.

	30-08-2004 21:35									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident Here's an even tougher question. Who was the worst conqueror. I'd like to here an answer to that one.

Mussolini.

	30-08-2004 21:36									#93
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It's close between Caesar and George Bush.

	30-08-2004 21:36									#94
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I don't agree, Kid. Alexander, given Napolean's position, may very well have conquered continental Europe and been somewhere in central Asia contemplating invading China when his troops revolted.

-Arrian

	30-08-2004 21:37									#95
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And then he would've died around Baghdad of malaria

	30-08-2004 21:40									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Alexander - marching a Greek army in 350 bc all the way from Hellas to India via Egypt and Central Asia, fighting all the way, is one of the greatest feats of arms of all time. An achievement never equalled.

No doubt.

But did he defeat a Roman Army?

Caesar not only defeated the barbarians, he defeated a fellow Roman, Pompey, who himself was a great general. In that time, leadership, not just Army size, was extremely important.

	30-08-2004 21:42									#97
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Napoleon never beat a better general, and lost one of the largest armies in history in Russia.

Ditto, Ghenghis Khan and Attilla.

Caesar stands alone as the greatest in history.

	30-08-2004 21:44									#98
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I find many of Napoleon's victories much more impressive than Alexander's- winning agaist huge enemy armies made of of lots of imperial components just waiting to break and run if the more loyal forces are crushed is not as impressive as fighting a larger enemy army of men as determined as yours.

Austerlitz was just a brilliant battle.

I find the Mongol conquests overall by far the most impressive in history- though they occured undr several rulers and not only one, like Alexander.

	30-08-2004 21:45									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Napoleon never beat a better general, and lost one of the largest armies in history in Russia. Ditto, Ghenghis Khan and Attilla. Caesar stands alone as the greatest in history.

How would you beat a "better" general?

	30-08-2004 21:49									#100
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Duh, have a much bigger army.

Like the USA in the civil war, for example.

	30-08-2004 22:13									#101
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel Duh, have a much bigger army. Like the USA in the civil war, for example.

If by that you mean Grant beating Lee, I would seriously state that a general needs to be both a good tactician and a good strategist- and I think Grant had Lee beat in the later and was not a bad tactician, thus overall a better General.

	30-08-2004 22:17									#102
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Ghengiz conquered the most territory, 'nuff said.

	30-08-2004 22:21									#103
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quote: Originally posted by GePap How would you beat a "better" general?

A general, who prior to the victory by their opponent, for example, Caesar, had at least as good if not better record.

Scipio, not on the list, did just that when he beat Hannibal.

But, Caesar beat both Vercingetorix and Pompey.

	30-08-2004 22:21									#104
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Wellington beat Napoleon. Nappy was the better general, but he made a mistake and lost.

	30-08-2004 22:23									#105
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Ghengiz conquered the most territory, 'nuff said.

Conquering vast wastelands is not impressive at all.

	30-08-2004 22:25									#106
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Wellington beat Napoleon. Nappy was the better general, but he made a mistake and lost.

So, that means he is not the "greatest."

	30-08-2004 22:25									#107
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Ghengiz conquered the most territory, 'nuff said.

A lot of which was sparsely populated. [EDIT: but then again, China helps make up for that.] 1000yrs later with a horse-based attack force.

Alex did what he did in the 4th century BC with a footsoldier-based army.

-Arrian

	30-08-2004 22:26									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Conquering vast wastelands is not impressive at all.

China, Persia, the ME, and Central Asia were not vast wastelands.

	30-08-2004 22:28									#109
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Not on the list is Timor the Lame. He certainly was a conqueror. Ruthless as hell. Never lost a battle. But, as well, he didn't beat another general with any reputation.

	30-08-2004 22:29									#110
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara China, Persia, the ME, and Central Asia were not vast wastelands.

GK, didn't conquer all that himself.

	30-08-2004 22:30									#111
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So, it really comes down to Caesar, Alexander and George Bush.

	30-08-2004 22:30									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Not on the list is Timor the Lame. He certainly was a conqueror. Ruthless as hell. Never lost a battle. But, as well, he didn't beat another general with any reputation.

Yes he did. He beat Beyezit the Thunderbolt. Beyezit was almost as good a general, but he was arrogant and overconfident (because he'd never lost a battle), and he made a stupid mistake and let himself get cut off from water East of Ankara before Timur crushed him. It could have gone the other way had he holed up in Ankara.

	30-08-2004 22:30									#114
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What about Charlemagne? Does he merit consideration (not that I think he would beat out either Alex or the great Khan).

-Arrian

	30-08-2004 22:35									#115
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Wellington beat Napoleon. Nappy was the better general, but he made a mistake and lost.

Wellington and Blucher beat Napoleon together- thought a lot of Brits would argue about saying Wellington was not as good as Napoleon- thought I do think Napoleon was better.

	30-08-2004 22:37									#116
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Yes he did. He beat Beyezit the Thunderbolt. Beyezit was almost as good a general, but he was arrogant and overconfident (because he'd never lost a battle), and he made a stupid mistake and let himself get cut off from water East of Ankara before Timur crushed him. It could have gone the other way had he holed up in Ankara.

Good.

Then Timor has to be ranked right up there.

And, please replace George Bush with Tommy Franks. (But of course, denigrate what he did because the US Military is so good.)

	30-08-2004 22:38									#117
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Conquering Iraq was not much of a feat - it says nothing about the general, just the army.

	30-08-2004 22:38									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian What about Charlemagne? Does he merit consideration (not that I think he would beat out either Alex or the great Khan). -Arrian

All he did was beat a few German tribes - Caesar did that as well. Ditto Patton.

Charlemagne got his ass handed to him in Spain.

	30-08-2004 22:39									#119
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They weren't exactly German "tribes" that Patton beat

	30-08-2004 22:40									#120
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P. Scipio Africanus - unlike Caesar, who beat up on the Gauls, he beat an enemy that actually was a match for Rome. Some brilliant victories as well. But at an earlier stage in the life of the Republic his victories were of lesser internal political importance.

Yitzhak Rabin - his conquest of the Jerusalem and the West Bank seems to be the pivot around which the politics of the entire globe now revolve, at least if you listen to some people.

Clive - Yup the Brits conquered India, and with minimal resources, and this set the state for world politics since.

Sargon II of Akkad - first conquest of a large, multinational empire.

Some Ottoman guy belongs here, I cant keep em straight.