03-09-2004 23:05									#481
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I actually agree with DanS , US forces would not be able to do much better against 40 heavily armed rebels who wired the school to blow.

	03-09-2004 23:20									#483
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quote: Originally posted by DanS I think that's totally unfair. They settled the theater crisis as well as could be expected. They saved half the hostages. It's easy for you to sit in your easychair and criticize tactics you know nothing about.

wasn't it ~100 dead out of 800 in the theatre?

	03-09-2004 23:26									#484
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In the US the rebels wouldn't get the chance to occupy the school in the first place. Maybe once, but not time and time again. You can't really compare 2 seemingly ordinary teenagers to a small army.
In the US they would at least attempt to try to Chechen conflict by political means, something Putin has never bothered with aside of holding forged polls to install puppets.
In the US there wouldn't be state censorship to create a smoke screen of stability in Chechnya. And likewise, they wouldn't try to minimalise the situation by claiming there were 300 hostages while the school has over a 1000 pupils.
And in the US the authorithies wouldn't use a gas that was known to be potentially lethal. And yes, that seems a very fair thing to criticize.

	03-09-2004 23:34									#485
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quote: Originally posted by OliverFA

Too close to truth to be fun...

	03-09-2004 23:34									#486
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quote: And in the US the authorithies wouldn't use a gas that was known to be potentially lethal. And yes, that seems a very fair thing to criticize.

How do you know that we weren't the ones to provide Russia with this gas? The Russian doctors seemed unfamiliar with how to handle casualties from it, so... (By the way, that's the only thing I would criticize the Russians for -- not having enough meds on hand after the fact.) I don't know how the US would react, but how could you rule out the possibility that we would use potentially lethal gas?

quote: In the US they would at least attempt to try to Chechen conflict by political means, something Putin has never bothered with aside of holding forged polls to install puppets. In the US there wouldn't be state censorship to create a smoke screen of stability in Chechnya. And likewise, they wouldn't try to minimalise the situation by claiming there were 300 hostages while the school has over a 1000 pupils.

We can't put ourselves in that situation. During and after the Civil War, we acted like rat bastards. But overall, I agree that this is a fair thing to criticize the Russian government on.

	03-09-2004 23:44									#487
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quote: Originally posted by DanS How do you know that we weren't the ones to provide Russia with this gas? I don't know how the US would react, but how could you rule out the possibility that we would use potentially lethal gas?

Maybe it can't be ruled out. But I'm pretty darn sure you'd set up a commission to find out if this a) was a responsible thing to do and b) to find out how it can be prevented in the future. Even after the third such crisis I'm not expecting any such commission in Russia soon.

quote: We can't put ourselves in that situation. During and after the Civil War, we acted like rat bastards.

This analogy is even worse than your Yukos - US antitrust one...

	04-09-2004 00:00									#488
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I actually agree with DanS , US forces would not be able to do much better against 40 heavily armed rebels who wired the school to blow.

Not aimed at you or DanS, who both get it... why in the world do you think they choose this method?!? Precisely because it precludes, or at least inhibits, military firepower from being effectively brought to bear. For the good guys, there is no good way out of the situation, and loss of innocent life is practically assured. Basically, a terrible decision either way is forced on the nation's leadership. It's freaking disgusting.

	04-09-2004 00:00									#489
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Well, if you don't like the analogies, let's just leave it as "[w]e can't put ourselves in that situation." In the end, I'm not so sure we would handle the theater hostage situation or the school attack any better. It seems that any government would be at a disadvantage -- having to choose which negative consequence to accept.

	04-09-2004 00:02									#490
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Cross-post with Solomwi.

	04-09-2004 00:08									#491
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Well, if you don't like the analogies, let's just leave it as "[w]e can't put ourselves in that situation." In the end, I'm not so sure we would handle the theater hostage situation or the school attack any better. It seems that any government would be at a disadvantage -- having to choose which negative consequence to accept.

The crisis on its won might not be dealt with anymore effectively. Whether such crises would keep on occuring and whether the openess of the authorithies would be any better is quite another question.

	04-09-2004 00:12									#492
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Hopefully, we will never know the answers to your question.

	04-09-2004 00:17									#493
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quote: Originally posted by DanS Hopefully, we will never know the answers to your question.

You will

Russian minister Sergei Ivanov said that Russia will accept any measures that Israeli army will take against terrorists. Previously he only said that actions of Israeli army must be moderate. Also he related to common roots of Israeli and Russian terror.

	04-09-2004 00:32									#494
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this outcome is too awful to contemplate. I can't let myself try to picture what has occured.

	04-09-2004 00:39									#495
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Has everything come to a close? When I heard last, there were rebels still in the basement, and a group was hold up in a nearby school property building. Have they got them all? What is the captured female saying.


What will Putin do now?

	04-09-2004 00:41									#496
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quote: Originally posted by Lancer "Lancer is making sense."-Kidicious Safety of the children is what civilization is all about. From the earliest stone age settlements it must have been the first thing. For the Russians and the world that safety is gone and we must do what it takes to get it back.

I think it's the highest goal. The Russians have a duty to children everywhere.

	04-09-2004 00:42									#497
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I'm worried that such success as the the US has had in tracking down terrorist leadership might not have been a result of a true international commitment to eliminate terror but rather may have occured as a result of simple calculations to win diplomatic points with the US. To really root these bastards out and burn their organizations to the ground we will need every government to understand that there is no choice but to do anything in their power to uncover and tear out any terrorists they are aware of and share every tiny scrap of probably relevant knowledge with every country that has demonstrated unambiguous opposition to terror.

When Bush said you are either with us or with the terrorists perhaps that should instead be revised to simply you are either opposed to all terrorists or you are with the terrorists. That's the mentality we will need to defeat these slippery transnational networks of terror.

	04-09-2004 00:42									#498
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quote: Originally posted by muxec Muslim fanatics do not value their children. 11-years old biys become suicide bombers. And they never were children, fanatics are not children.

Whatever...that may be one of the stupidest lines I've ever read. I can't believe you're arguing the fact that everyone was a child once!

	04-09-2004 00:43									#499
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Whatever

I think it has been demonstrated that muslim fanatics have demonstrated an appalling deficiency of concern for the welfare of their or anybody else's children

	04-09-2004 00:47									#500
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Whatever...that may be one of the stupidest lines I've ever read. I can't believe you're arguing the fact that everyone was a child once!

You lived in democratic state with freedom of thought. I lived most of my life under dictatorship regime and I can beleive that it's true. Also too many of my friends serve in occupation forces and see this daily.

	04-09-2004 00:49									#501
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Geronimo: See, that's not at all what I was talking about. I just made a response to FMK that children eventually grow up and add to the festering cesspool that is our world. Muxec's line was stupid, and I called it such.

Muxec: That's idiotic. It just is. In your opinion, people who grow up to be fanatics always were fanatics and never lived in a period where their environment brought them up that way. Its rediculous.

	04-09-2004 01:01									#502
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Fabulous, did you study history of Soviet Russia once? Have you heard about Pavlik Morozov?

Read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libera...ts_within_Islam it's what USA tries to achieve

	04-09-2004 01:03									#503
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What the heck does that have to do with anything? Look, all I was saying is that children become adults. You saying adult fanatics never were children is messed up. I can't believe we're arguing about this...

	04-09-2004 01:07									#504
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous What the heck does that have to do with anything? Look, all I was saying is that children become adults. You saying adult fanatics never were children is messed up. I can't believe we're arguing about this...

Look at Afgani children who know to handle AK47 before they can read.

And please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Morozov not good example, just to understand.

	04-09-2004 01:20									#505
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If I were Ming I would close this thread.

	04-09-2004 01:23									#506
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They weren't born this way, they are brought up this way. You're trying really hard to say I'm wrong when when I made my first comment there wasn't a right or a wrong and I wasn't looking for a debate.

However, I see you feel it helps your position if you never consider these people children. If they aren't children, nothing should stop you from bombing where they live.

	04-09-2004 01:25									#507
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With right education they would be, indeed. Please move to the next part of the thread.

Moderator.Ming.Close()

	04-09-2004 01:25									#508
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Interfax is reporting that at least 200 are dead, is very likely to be much higher.

This is looking like a 1500 people job.

	04-09-2004 01:26									#509
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quote: Originally posted by muxec With right education they would be, indeed. Please move to the next part of the thread. Moderator.Ming.Close()

Why? It isn't closed yet

	04-09-2004 02:05									#510
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quote: Originally posted by Kalius Interfax is reporting that at least 200 are dead, is very likely to be much higher. This is looking like a 1500 people job.

I don't understand why it would be difficult for the town to determine who was in the school. Hasn't anybody done a headcount of families with students who attend the school to get an idea of this? 1500 people is vastly in excess of the 300-350 people that were reported before.