22-10-2004 23:17									#181
	Inflate your Upload Space

To China:

I have repetedly asked you to remove your silly looking pink units from my territory, but my "good friends" China could not be bothered with such a simple request. As is usual when dealing with you, in the end it was simply easier to do it ourselves.

To the Iroquois:

I have tried to teach you the way a civilised nation is to behave, but your savage roots are too deeply ingrained. You have violated my territory for the last time. Your Pikemen have been expelled. My cavalry struck at St. Regis.

	23-10-2004 04:00									#182
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Wow, the Celts are at war on 2 fronts.

They must have a death wish. Where's Charles Bronson?

	23-10-2004 04:48									#183
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

in these troublesome days, where a wrong word can mean war, the people of sumeria and netherlands cannot and will not tolerate any border violation of any kind!

an iroquois galley floating along our coast, spying on our pretty farmer's daughers, and scaring away the fish from our fishing grounds was warned with a bunch of bombers flying over it. our reconnaissance planes fotographed the reaction of the seamen as they all crapped their trousers at the same time at the sight of our thunderbirds. so much crap, that the rotten wood of the 2500 year old galley broke and the whole ship sank, providing new reefs for the sea fauna and flora.

the ottoman and chinese galleons in the central area of the ocean are herewith admonished: do not enter the cultural realm of either the sumerian, nor the dutch borders. in fact, for the sake of taking the tension off the trigger-happy pilots and artillerists we recommend you also leave any area bordering our borders.


330bc to the ottomans

	24-10-2004 19:23									#184
	Suffering from ads?

Wow.....Sabre's developing a sense of humour

Sabre....sinking our non-threatening Caravel will merely serve to reduce our unit support costs by 2gpt. The ship is serving no real purpose other than mapping your coastline.

Hey Sabre....how much do you want for Rubber and Saltpeter?

	24-10-2004 23:25									#185
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 Wow, the Celts are at war on 2 fronts. They must have a death wish. Where's Charles Bronson?

Charles Bronson, Nick Nolte and Mickey Rourke do what I tell them to. They know not to mess with me.

China has suffered its first losses. A worker has been conscripted to serve our cause. Soon he will have many companions.

The Iroquois have once again been swept from our territory. Clearly musketmen are worthless in this modern age of 310 BC.

On to Sabre, may his spaceship launch soon.

	25-10-2004 05:54									#186
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 Sabre....sinking our non-threatening Caravel will merely serve to reduce our unit support costs by 2gpt. The ship is serving no real purpose other than mapping your coastline.

as requested by mao, the mighty chinese emperor himself, sumeria helped him by reducing his army costs by 2 chests of gold per year.

but with his plea for reducing the costs, mao forgot that far more than a mere galleon was at stake. the delivery of various luxuries have been halted, until china decides whether it wants to further provoke (despite being warned) or is truly interested in peace.


after getting requests for rubber from two nations that are at war against each other, the western alliance has decided not to transfer this commodity to either nation at the time. horses, saltpeter and iron will be provided to the civilisations that request any of these resources. the western union of nations (WU) think that riflemen and cavalry provide much more equilibrated battles.


seeing iroquois hordes falling into celtic lands does not please the WE governments. the dutch part of the council believes that brennus is to blame for starting a two-front war before being truly prepared and deserves nothing else than defeat while the sumerians agree that he may have be foolish, but also bold. the WU has agreed to dispatch a small force of peacekeeping units consisting of around 8 mechanised infantry and naval and areal support to check that everything goes fair. attacking the peacekeepers will likely make the WU council change the mission into a peace inforcing that will establish a guarded perimiter in the bordering mountain range between celtania and iroquistan if either nation requires that

	25-10-2004 05:56									#187
	Support Apolyton

310bc to gamecube

	25-10-2004 11:01									#188
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf as requested by mao, the mighty chinese emperor himself, sumeria helped him by reducing his army costs by 2 chests of gold per year. but with his plea for reducing the costs, mao forgot that far more than a mere galleon was at stake. the delivery of various luxuries have been halted, until china decides whether it wants to further provoke (despite being warned) or is truly interested in peace.

It was not a request, merely a statement that the Caravel wasn't posing any threat to you. But you have gone ahead anyway and declared war, killing my trade deals with you and presumably plunging a bunch of my cities into disorder just when I can't afford for that to happen. So thanks

So having said all that.....in response to your patronising twaddle about being provoked by a piddly Caravel.......screw you!

	25-10-2004 16:27									#189
	Inflate your Upload Space

the sumerian government does not understand mao's outbreak.

despite a very clear and unmisunderstandable warning:

quote: the ottoman and chinese galleons in the central area of the ocean are herewith admonished: do not enter the cultural realm of either the sumerian, nor the dutch borders.

mao decided to leave his vessel in our territory and said that a sinking would be no problem - we quote from earlier negotiations:

quote: sinking our non-threatening Caravel will merely serve to reduce our unit support costs by 2gpt. The ship is serving no real purpose other than mapping your coastline.

[please note the thumbs up ( ) !]

sumeria saw the sweat drops on the forehead of the chinese emissary and called the bluff. a bad poker player should not play poker. next time, china should think about the big picture before ignoring a credible threat

	25-10-2004 16:40									#190
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Sent to Aqua

Lets just say your Gallic Warrior was shot many times in the head... by artillery, THEN calvary.

Yes musketmen do suck, how will you fair against my newly connected rubberized-infantry?

	25-10-2004 17:50									#191
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Well Sabre, you can make up for it by sending me back the luxury.

As for 1889, if that's the extent of your offensive force, I'll order my defenders to stand down fairly soon I suggest you concentrate on the Iroquois!

	25-10-2004 20:59									#192
	Get a bigger avatar today!

To Sabre

	26-10-2004 01:16									#193
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

290bc to gamecube

	26-10-2004 02:36									#194
	Stalemate Remove this text

We lack the offensive capability to break through each others defences.

Congratulations to Sabre on his massive victory.

I would rather not spend any more time on this game. Is anyone getting anything out of it? My time would be better spent on my story The Five Nations or my orders in Cold War NES.

Lacking any compelling argument it won't be sent along, but I will be happy to provide my password to any replacement.

	26-10-2004 04:10									#195
	Inflate your Upload Space

Battle news now!
Ottomans have begun expelling mayans from their island chain, it is likely they will also clear them from their allie's islands as well. One city was taken with no causualties.

Using artillery the Iroquois obliterated 2,000 sq KM of celtic land.

Sent to Aqua.

	26-10-2004 05:02									#196
	Remove this text

Well, I can't find any compelling reason to continue either.

Clearly Sabre has won......an outcome that became cemented in stone when he illegally used his friendly civilisations to generate GA's for each other, which led to him being able to build Leo's (and other wonders) in record time, then upgrade his entire army the turn before I would have attacked him and taken out the poorly defended core city, which would have been a huge setback for Sumeria. Bear in mind also, that the Chinese and Celts did not even use their GA.

Call it sour grapes if you like....but in my opinion it was wrong and gave Sabre an unfair advantage at a time when he was able to use it to steamroll his greatest threat, the Inca.

Apart from that minor detail....congratulations Sabre.

	29-10-2004 02:38									#197
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 Well, I can't find any compelling reason to continue either. Clearly Sabre has won......an outcome that became cemented in stone when he illegally used his friendly civilisations to generate GA's for each other, which led to him being able to build Leo's (and other wonders) in record time, then upgrade his entire army the turn before I would have attacked him and taken out the poorly defended core city, which would have been a huge setback for Sumeria. Bear in mind also, that the Chinese and Celts did not even use their GA. Call it sour grapes if you like....but in my opinion it was wrong and gave Sabre an unfair advantage at a time when he was able to use it to steamroll his greatest threat, the Inca. Apart from that minor detail....congratulations Sabre.

we discussed the GA-triggering earlier on and i offered something in return, but everybody said it was ok. and you guys also triggered your GA in the same way, with that validating my initial "unclean" move.

concerning leo's and the upgrades: i had plenty of money to upgrade anyhow. my defences were very thin and only when i realised the threat did i start building more troops and moving all to the border cities. you had plenty of post-leo's turns to attack but didn't do so. about 5 turns later, i also upgraded my horsemen to cavalry and then attacked. so basically, it wasn't my GA that led to my easy victory, but my luck that you did not try an early attack!

and even without GA i would have outproduced and outresearched everybody. my extreme rexing with 2 agricultural civs and the immediate library-build in all sumerian cities made my research so strong, that i could permanently gift money to the dutch to keep up their economy.

but anyhow, i think it's pity that this game is not beeing played out. it sounds more like a resignation of the celts against the iroquois and chinese because of an unprepared 2-front war
but ok, if aqua also wants to stop, then there's probably no sense in continuing...


thanks for the game, everybody!

	29-10-2004 06:10									#198
	Tired of ads?

Well there's not much point in continuing to argue about this. But.....

quote: Originally posted by sabrewolf we discussed the GA-triggering earlier on and i offered something in return, but everybody said it was ok.

There was nothing you could "offer in return". The damage was done. Your GA allowed you to build Leo's and Copernicus very very quickly, which obviously allowed cheap upgrades and helped your research pace.

quote: and you guys also triggered your GA in the same way, with that validating my initial "unclean" move.

Not true at all. The Inca triggered their GA when it was already too late, and they had lost about half of their cities. If I had done as you had done and triggered my GA say 20 turns earlier in a "friendly" move with the Maya, I would have had sufficient forces to have attacked you earlier and you would never have had the cheap upgrades....I probably would also have been able to take out your capital (with Copernicus) which was nearby.

quote: concerning leo's and the upgrades: i had plenty of money to upgrade anyhow.

Your double GA's allowed you to accumulate huge cash reserves for upgrades, and maintain a fast research pace. The rest of us were working on the basis that a GA could only be triggered by a war event, and a war event would necessarily have a big impact on our build queues. You were able to take maximum advantage of both your GA's during a peaceful time. That has a massive impact.

quote: my defences were very thin and only when i realised the threat did i start building more troops and moving all to the border cities.

Precisely my point. Had I felt it was fair to generate my own GA earlier by way of a pretend war with the Maya, I would have done so and devastated your thin defences and taken out your best production cities. This would have crippled Sumeria.

quote: you had plenty of post-leo's turns to attack but didn't do so. about 5 turns later, i also upgraded my horsemen to cavalry and then attacked.

From memory, it was 2 turns. Perhaps 3. My attack was imminent, and if you hadn't triggered your GA or if I had, the result would have been very different.

quote: so basically, it wasn't my GA that led to my easy victory, but my luck that you did not try an early attack!

As I have already pointed out at length....your GA's (both of them) had a vital and compounding effect on cash (ability to upgrade your weak defences), research (extra commerce plus fast Copernicus) and production (Copernicus plus Leos plus fast military production).

quote: and even without GA i would have outproduced and outresearched everybody. my extreme rexing with 2 agricultural civs and the immediate library-build in all sumerian cities made my research so strong, that i could permanently gift money to the dutch to keep up their economy.

You are so wrong here. Before your GA you were only marginally ahead of the Inca and Chinese in research. Your natural advantages of having 2 Agricultural civs and a Scientific civ did allow you to pull ahead, but not as much as you claim. Your dual GA trigger put the seal on this game. (I note that you have used Sumeria and the Netherlands in another game I was in....clearly a preference of yours and an awesome combination against anyone). The resource situation was also severely skewed in favour of "your" continent, which added insult to injury.

quote: but anyhow, i think it's pity that this game is not beeing played out. it sounds more like a resignation of the celts against the iroquois and chinese because of an unprepared 2-front war but ok, if aqua also wants to stop, then there's probably no sense in continuing... thanks for the game, everybody!

I am happy to continue, but as you've already pointed out on many occassions, nobody can stop you, so there is little point. I don't like being constantly reminded of your superiority with comments about Mechanised Infantry and Aerial peacekeeping forces, when most of us don't even have the resources necessary to build Infantry or Cavalry. Particularly when, in my view, your overwhelming superiority was achieved largely because of the timing of your GA's, which were not generated in the way the game is intended to be played.

Sabre, you may well still have won the game had you not generated your GA's illegally. We all recognise you are an accomplished player. However, I can guarantee you it would have been a much much closer and hard fought game! And I would have congratulated your victory, if it had eventuated, more warmly

	29-10-2004 17:33									#199
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

i don't agree with all of your claims, but there we've just got different opinions.

just 2 small facts you definatly got wrong:
- my dutch GA started a lot later than the sumerian one. i only triggered that one after we had discussed it in here.
- copernicus is not in the capital. the copernicus city was my only productive northern city. all other "good" cities were south.

anyway, i agree that it would have been closer without the sumerian GA.