 |
|
Serb
|
|
Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:24
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dissident
why is the life of a child worth more than that of an adult?
This is not another nonsensical comment by myself. I'm really curious why women and children are valued more by western society (and I consider Russia to be part of western society btw) |
Because aside adult males they have not a single chance to defend themselves, I guess.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
The Emperor Fabulous
|
 |
Apolyton's Resident Actor-in-Training
Aug 1999
time: 00:24
|
|
Serb: They had no water. Apparently the teachers told them to drink their urine to stay at least somewhat hydrated.
quote:
A suspect in the bloody school siege that left more than 330 people dead, nearly half of them children, said Monday the hostage-takers were ordered to seize the school to "start a war across the Caucasus."
Appearing on Russian state television, the unidentified man said the attack was ordered by Chechen rebel leader Aslan Maskhadov and Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev.
"They gathered us in the woods and 'The Colonel' said that we should take over a school in Beslan. That was our order," he said.
"When we asked why we were doing this, what our goal was, 'The Colonel' answered us, 'Because we need to start a war across the Caucasus."
He said the hostage-takers included Uzbeks, Arabs and Chechens. |
In light of this news, if it is true (which it probably is because any rebel wouldn't just lie and point the finger at his cause), that totally changes my opinion (but don't call it a flip-flop.)
**** the bastards. I have no support left for the major Chechen resistence. I still feel for the Chechen people, but if the leader of the rebels orders the taking of children, **** 'em.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Serb
|
|
Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:24
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
I thought that the hostages had witnessed the terrorists pulling up floor boards and retreiving materials from underneath? I don't see why they would have lied about such a detail. Why would this guy lie about this one detail? Perhaps there is someone still at large he is protecting. OTOH could the terrorists have been pulling up boards in order to plant boobytraps?
|
I think there could be two possibilities:
1) He is lying to cover someone. It's possible, but considering how he is whining, I doubt he has balls to hide something. FSB says he cooperate gladly, and tell them everything they want to know- and details about their route to Beslan and preparations, anything he knew. He is doing everything to save his butt. But still he can't be trusted and can lie to protect traitors who could help them inside Beslan.
2) He may speek the truth, which means that hostages were mistaken. One thing terrorists forced them to do is absolutely proven- they forced them to make baricades using all things that were laying around, such as floor bars.
Anyhow, it demands further investigation and more information from survived hostages.
quote:
When this is over the Russians can consult with the Germans about seeing what it would take for an unfortuante suicide to await this fellow in the future. Tragic thing that happened to the Bader-Meyerhoff gang. Tragic. |
This captured piece of sh!t is dead already, even if death penalty will not be resored in Russia. They could just throw him to prison where criminals from North Caucasus beeing held and say- this f*cker captured the school in your region and killed children there. I doubt he'll survive an hour after that.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Serb
|
|
Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:24
|
|
I think last thing the relatives of murdered kids need is his apologizes. This beast deserves death. He simply doesn't deserve to live, he is not a human being.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Serb
|
|
Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:24
|
|
He deserves to be given to parents of his victims. It's the best punishment for him.
We don't need that kind of sh!t here in Siberia, that kind of sh!t doesn't deserve to see sunlight.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Heresson
|
 |
of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:24
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Serb
Then what the hell it was?
Moscow controlled nothing in Chechnya between 1996-1999.
NOTHING.
|
Calm down
I don't claim it did. What I mean is legal independance/
quote:
We had more than enough of this nightmare during three years of their independence. You suggest we should let them to kill us, to steal our citizens and convert them into slaves and to invade us till the end of times, till they kill all of us and win?
|
3 years is little. Perhaps it would settle better with time. I'm sure it would. I think most of them would just want to keep this practical independance and not piss You off.
quote:
Oh my, you are just BLIND Heresson, just BLIND. No matter what happens, no matter what happened, no matter of any facts you're just keep whining- no, no, no, they couldn't do that, they were good guys.
I saw a tape how Maskhadov (their so-called president) awarded Basaev and Hattab by watches for fight against unfaithfull.
|
If it is true, You are right, of course. But I will not believe it till I see it.
quote:
Now, when the hell Maskhadov condemned terrorism or invasion in Dagestan?
WHEN? And how the hell he could do this, if he is a terrorist himself? He planned 2002 Moscow's theater tackover, he planned Beslan school takeover.
|
You have no proof for that
quote:
e of forces that invaded Dagestan was a defense minister of Maskhadov's government of Chechnya.
|
According to my information, the president of Tchechenia condemned the attack. So I've heard. Perhaps I am wrong. I don't know.
quote:
Maskhadov who send his defense minister to invade Dagestan, thus declared war to Russia,
|
Hm. I think this action was a private thing by Basajew rather. But if Maschadow was indeed into this, You are right, of course
quote:
I've never heard he denied his responsibility for invasion in Dagestan.
|
Which can be a fault of your press actually. But again, perhaps You are right
quote:
Chechnya between 1996-1999 WAS A FUNDAMETALIST REGIME. |
If so, was it the same before I Chechen war?
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Serb
|
|
Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:24
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Calm down
|
OK.
quote:
I don't claim it did. What I mean is legal independance/ |
Legal independence? What the hell is that?
They won first war and they signed a treaty which said that Chechnya is not a part of Russia anymore, but doesn't recognized as independent state either. The treaty which said that this question should be solved in 2001, but untill then- Chechens will govern themselves without any controll from Moscow, but they also agree to do not attack Russia, agree that the war is over.
As for me- they were independent, they were free to do whatever they wanted.
If for you a paper which said - "yes, it's sovereign state now", means so much, then for me reality means more than paper, and in reality they were absloutely free from Moscow's rule between 1996-1999. And furthermore, they COULD recieve this official paper about complete recogition of their independence in 2001, but it wasn't what they wanted- they wanted more. Chechnya was only beggining, the base for their crusade against unfaithfull. They wanted continuation of war, continuation of their Jihad to their complete victory over heretics. That's why they violated peace treaty and invaded Dagestan, they wanted to conquer it, and thought they could conquer it, because they already defeated Russians once, in Chechnya. They wanted to establish in Dagestan the same order they established in Chechnya- the vahhabite's order. It was a f*cking expanision, a recreation of their f*cking Khalifate. And Dagestan wasn't the last in their list of lands to conquer.
quote:
3 years is little. Perhaps it would settle better with time. I'm sure it would. I think most of them would just want to keep this practical independance and not piss You off. |
3 years is more than enough for us. The rule is simple- if you sign a peace treaty- you should be peacefull, you are not allowed to launch a massive terrorist campaign agaist us, you are not allowed to blow-up our houses and killing our civilians, you are not allowed to steal our citizens and turn them to salves, you are not allowed to invade us. If you attack us- it means you violate the treaty. We can't just seat and watch how they invade us and kill us.
They commited the act of war, because invasion in Dagestan was a 100% act of war. So it's not about time or pissing us off, it's about their violation of peace treaty we signed with them. Simple as that.
quote:
If it is true, You are right, of course. But I will not believe it till I see it. |
For me it's enough that I saw this tape. I saw it with my own eyes. I saw how he awarded them for explosions that killed hundrens of Russian civilians. I saw many things you've never seen, like tapes where those glorious freedom fighters cut fingers of their kidnapped victims to send those fingers back to the relatives as proof of their intentions, with clear message- send us money or he'll die in very painfull way. I saw how they cut heads. I saw how they cut throats. I saw the eyes of one of their victims who saw what's going on and who knew that he'll die soon, and I saw the face of his murder aproaching his tied victim with smile and who later cut human throat like it was a sheep and still keep smiling like he did nothing wrong. I saw how they cut throats of captured and tied Dagestani cops. I saw how they shot and hang people in Grozny. I saw too much of that and thanks God it was only a video tapes.
If you didn't see this, it doesn't mean it never happen.
quote:
You have no proof for that |
I am not a FSB. FSB have proofs. They've launched investigation, not I am. And they said it was him, the leader of band who captured Moscow's theater in his interview to TV during crisis, said it was a president Maskhadov's order. And I remember this because I saw it with my own eyes and hear it with my own ears. If your TV didn't show the interview of leader of terrorists who captured civilians in theater, it's your problem. He clearly said then whose order he fulfill.
And I saw another interview with Maskhadov where he said that "soon we will launch unique operation, whole world will hear about us".
I don't need more evidences, though I believe FSB have much more of them.
quote:
According to my information, the president of Tchechenia condemned the attack. So I've heard. Perhaps I am wrong. I don't know.
Hm. I think this action was a private thing by Basajew rather. But if Maschadow was indeed into this, You are right, of course |
Basaev was a defense minister of Maskhadov's so-called government. In 1999 an army lead by Basaev invaded Dagestan. I don't f*cking care about anything this president could said. He could said anything, but it doesn't change the fact that army of Chechen terrorists lead by Chechen defense minister invaded Russian Federation thus violated a peace treaty we have signed.
End of story.
Imagine your government signed a peace treaty with Germany. Then Polish army lead by defense minister of Poland invades Germany, and when they are beaten there and running away back to Poland, Polish president make a statement- I condemn this attack, it was a private initaitve of my defense minister, German troops have no right to enter Poland, because we signed a peace treaty, remember?
Who the f*ck would believe him?
quote:
Which can be a fault of your press actually. But again, perhaps You are right |
As I've said above it doesn't change a thing. His minister launched an attack of Chechen army against Russia from Chechen territory. So I really do not care if he really said something (but I again I doubt he did. You can't launch an invasion if your president is against it). He was involved in preparation of this attack and knew this attack coming. You can't prepare such invasion within weeks, you need months.
What I care and what I know is that after Basaev and his army was crushed in Dagestan and was running back to Chechnya, Maskhadov declared mobilization and Jihad over Russia. I don't really want to know anything more. That's enough for me.
quote:
If so, was it the same before I Chechen war? |
Before 1st war it was just a fascist dicatorship ruled by crazy dictator, after they've won their independence in the first war it became a fascist funamentalist state of Taliban type ruled by religious extremists and terrorists.
|
|
| |
|
| |
|
|
|
Geronimo
|
|
st cloud USA
Jan 1970
time: 05:24
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Serb
OK.
Legal independence? What the hell is that?
They won first war and they signed a treaty which said that Chechnya is not a part of Russia anymore, but doesn't recognized as independent state either. The treaty which said that this question should be solved in 2001, but untill then- Chechens will govern themselves without any controll from Moscow, but they also agree to do not attack Russia, agree that the war is over.
As for me- they were independent, they were free to do whatever they wanted.
If for you a paper which said - "yes, it's sovereign state now", means so much, then for me reality means more than paper, and in reality they were absloutely free from Moscow's rule between 1996-1999. And furthermore, they COULD recieve this official paper about complete recogition of their independence in 2001, but it wasn't what they wanted- they wanted more. Chechnya was only beggining, the base for their crusade against unfaithfull. They wanted continuation of war, continuation of their Jihad to their complete victory over heretics. That's why they violated peace treaty and invaded Dagestan, they wanted to conquer it, and thought they could conquer it, because they already defeated Russians once, in Chechnya. They wanted to establish in Dagestan the same order they established in Chechnya- the vahhabite's order. It was a f*cking expanision, a recreation of their f*cking Khalifate. And Dagestan wasn't the last in their list of lands to conquer.
3 years is more than enough for us. The rule is simple- if you sign a peace treaty- you should be peacefull, you are not allowed to launch a massive terrorist campaign agaist us, you are not allowed to blow-up our houses and killing our civilians, you are not allowed to steal our citizens and turn them to salves, you are not allowed to invade us. If you attack us- it means you violate the treaty. We can't just seat and watch how they invade us and kill us.
They commited the act of war, because invasion in Dagestan was a 100% act of war. So it's not about time or pissing us off, it's about their violation of peace treaty we signed with them. Simple as that.
For me it's enough that I saw this tape. I saw it with my own eyes. I saw how he awarded them for explosions that killed hundrens of Russian civilians. I saw many things you've never seen, like tapes where those glorious freedom fighters cut fingers of their kidnapped victims to send those fingers back to the relatives as proof of their intentions, with clear message- send us money or he'll die in very painfull way. I saw how they cut heads. I saw how they cut throats. I saw the eyes of one of their victims who saw what's going on and who knew that he'll die soon, and I saw the face of his murder aproaching his tied victim with smile and who later cut human throat like it was a sheep and still keep smiling like he did nothing wrong. I saw how they cut throats of captured and tied Dagestani cops. I saw how they shot and hang people in Grozny. I saw too much of that and thanks God it was only a video tapes.
If you didn't see this, it doesn't mean it never happen.
I am not a FSB. FSB have proofs. They've launched investigation, not I am. And they said it was him, the leader of band who captured Moscow's theater in his interview to TV during crisis, said it was a president Maskhadov's order. And I remember this because I saw it with my own eyes and hear it with my own ears. If your TV didn't show the interview of leader of terrorists who captured civilians in theater, it's your problem. He clearly said then whose order he fulfill.
And I saw another interview with Maskhadov where he said that "soon we will launch unique operation, whole world will hear about us".
I don't need more evidences, though I believe FSB have much more of them.
Basaev was a defense minister of Maskhadov's so-called government. In 1999 an army lead by Basaev invaded Dagestan. I don't f*cking care about anything this president could said. He could said anything, but it doesn't change the fact that army of Chechen terrorists lead by Chechen defense minister invaded Russian Federation thus violated a peace treaty we have signed.
End of story.
Imagine your government signed a peace treaty with Germany. Then Polish army lead by defense minister of Poland invades Germany, and when they are beaten there and running away back to Poland, Polish president make a statement- I condemn this attack, it was a private initaitve of my defense minister, German troops have no right to enter Poland, because we signed a peace treaty, remember?
Who the f*ck would believe him?
As I've said above it doesn't change a thing. His minister launched an attack of Chechen army against Russia from Chechen territory. So I really do not care if he really said something (but I again I doubt he did. You can't launch an invasion if your president is against it). He was involved in preparation of this attack and knew this attack coming. You can't prepare such invasion within weeks, you need months.
What I care and what I know is that after Basaev and his army was crushed in Dagestan and was running back to Chechnya, Maskhadov declared mobilization and Jihad over Russia. I don't really want to know anything more. That's enough for me.
Before 1st war it was just a fascist dicatorship ruled by crazy dictator, after they've won their independence in the first war it became a fascist funamentalist state of Taliban type ruled by religious extremists and terrorists. |
Preach on brother! 
|
|
| |
|
|
|
The Mad Monk
|
 |
of Ice Cream
Mar 2000
time: 23:24
|
|
More, elsewhere:
quote:
Afghan school explosion kills at least 10
9 minors among the dead; governor says bomb caused blastThe
Associated Press
Updated: 5:36 a.m. ET Aug. 29, 2004
KABUL, Afghanistan - An explosion ripped through a school in southeastern Afghanistan, killing nine children and one adult, the U.S. military said Sunday.
An Afghan official said the blast on Saturday evening in Paktia province was caused by a bomb, though the military said it was still unclear.
“There was an explosion, that’s all we know,” American spokeswoman Master Sgt. Ann Bennett said. “Killed were four children, five teenagers and one adult.”
An 8-year-old boy injured in the blast was taken to an American military base for treatment, Bennett said.
Paktia Gov. Asadullah Wafa said eight children aged 7-15 were killed and 15 other people injured, three of them critically.
The American military said it was helping local authorities investigate the explosion, which Bennett said occurred as the children were attending an evening class.
Governor rips Pakistan
Wafa said the explosion was caused by a bomb planted by “puppets listening to their bosses outside the country” — a remark clearly aimed at Pakistan.
He didn’t elaborate.
The Mullah Khel school near Zormat, about 80 miles south of the capital, Kabul, was an Islamic school which also taught the more modern syllabus set by the Afghan Education Ministry.
It received funding from an international aid group, Wafa said, something that could conceivably have made it a target for Taliban-led militants.
Civilians have often been among the victims of violence between rebels and Afghan and U.S. forces across the south and east of Afghanistan. |
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5855210/
Looks like a new offensive. 
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Dr Strangelove
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Would building a "Berlin Wall" around Chechnya help? |
What if the people of Chechnya really don't want Maskhadov and his minions? Wouldn't you be condemning the innocent? What we need to do is find out if the Chechens really want these guys back in power. If they don't we should begin negotiations to hand the province back to them, but also lay the foundations of a countercoup within Chechnya. We then give Maskhadov the keys to the palace, then the day after his boys move in we spring the trap. Once the whole gang is rounded up with give them to the people of Chechnya and Osetia who have suffered so much in their hands.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Serb
|
|
Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:24
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
Has anyone else seen the story of a Greek school teacher who was given the choice of leaving the school along with some other elderly, but who chose to stay with his students? Israeli press says he died throwing himself on a grenade, Greek press says he was dismantling a fan that was wired to a bomb. Legend or true? Other sources? |
Many teachers, kids, parents and spetsnaz officers died as real heroes there. The death tall among spetsnaz now reached 12 KIA. It's the biggest casualty in a single operation among spetsnaz during its entire history. I saw the interview with wounded officer and he said that inside building they couldn't return fire or throw grenades, because those f*ckers were hiding among the kids, some made a real barricades of bodies of wounded children and shot from that "shelter", so in many cases the only choice spetsnaz had was to cover escaping children with their own bodies.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Serb
|
|
Siberia, Communist party of Apolyton
Nov 2001
time: 11:24
|
|
Not only hidding, they executed kids inside the building, shot them and kill them with knifes. One f*cker shot 3 years old child on view of child's mother who was begging for mercy for her kid. She is a Muslim and she told him so, but he jsut said- "you don't believe in true Allah" and shot her child. She survived. Those beast show no mercy. Beslan is most Muslim town in whole North Ossetia. The f*cks who did it knew this. They aren't Muslims, they aren't humans, they worship to devil.
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Vince278
|
|
quote:
From Yahoo News:
Questions Linger Over Russia School Seige
1 hour, 49 minutes ago
By BURT HERMAN, Associated Press Writer
BESLAN, Russia - Russian soldiers fled as shooting broke out in the spasm of violence that ended the school siege here, and unprepared special forces were forced to borrow bullets from armed locals who had rushed to the scene.
As Beslan buried more victims Friday, a week after the bloodbath at School No. 1, questions lingered over how authorities handled the three-day standoff that left at least 330 hostages dead.
"One of the most painful questions that that whole world is asking — why all the events surrounding the Beslan school No. 1 looked so out of control ... probably has an answer: Because nobody was in charge of the operation," the Russian daily Russkiy Kuryer said in an editorial Friday.
President Bush (news - web sites) has asked top advisers to study how authorities would deal with a similar assault on an American school.
Referring to the Beslan crisis, Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge told The Associated Press on Thursday that "preliminary reports suggest there wasn't the kind of coordination and leadership and direction and somebody being in charge."
Meanwhile, the mound of flowers and wreaths at the school continues to grow as mourners converge from around the Caucasus region of North Ossetia, home to Beslan. Some also leave food and water, among the deprivations the hostages suffered.
Not a single room was left untouched by the attack, which began Sept. 1 as children arrived with their parents for what was to have been a festive first day of class.
Shrapnel and blood spatters the hallways and hundreds of bullet holes riddle the walls both inside and out. But other signs of the battle are already disappearing. Children from the town have collected many of the rocket-launcher tubes left scattered around the school.
Officials aroused suspicion from the start by insisting the hostages numbered about 350, when in fact they were more than 1,200. Residents rushed to the scene, fearing authorities planned to storm the building and didn't want the public to know so many lives hung in the balance.
"From the start, (authorities) weren't doing things right," said Artur Belikov, 35, attending a wake for two relatives killed, Albina Budayeva, 38, and her 3-year-old daughter Valeria.
But Katya Tsikayeva, 69, also at a wake at Beslan's cemetery, argued that troops should have immediately stormed the building. 'Why did they wait a second day, a third day — to let so many die?" she asked.
A Beslan resident who gave only his first name, Robert, said he arrived soon after the siege started and stood guard throughout.
He would not say where he got his gun; private citizens aren't normally allowed to keep weapons in Russia. However, many people in the Caucasus, where myriad conflicts have erupted since the 1991 Soviet collapse, are believed to have arms at home.
The standoff ended Sept. 3, when an explosion inside the school sent children fleeing and their captors began shooting them in the back — prompting the forces gathered outside to return fire.
He said conscript soldiers fled as the fighting began. "They were worried about their own lives," said Robert, 31, who had several relatives inside.
Locals handed their clips of ammunition to elite troops who didn't have enough bullets, Robert said. "They weren't ready."
The arrival of some special forces was also delayed because they didn't have bulletproof vests, residents said.
By official accounts, 11 elite soldiers were killed in the siege, more than in any other single battle. Some media reports have said they were shot in the back by locals at the scene.
Gena, an Interior Ministry warrant officer from a nearby region who wasn't involved in the battle, said it appeared authorities had no plans for what to do when mayhem broke out. Visiting the school Friday, he said troops should have taken the children away from the school before returning fire.
"If they already had two days, they needed to think of something," said Gena, who had six relatives among the hostages and also gave only his first name.
Lamenting the corruption and lapses in duty that allowed the attackers to bring their arsenal to the school, residents are demanding a full explanation of the circumstances that made the attack possible as well as how it all ended.
Whether they will get it remains to be seen.
"No one really knows the truth of what happened, and it won't be known for a long time," Belikov said. |
*Boldface above is mine.
Shocking reports just out of Russia. Regular army fleeing the scene? No coordinated leadership? Spetsnaz borrowing ammo from the locals? Largest single loss of Spetsnaz troops? It boggles the mind. I don't know what to say. 
|
|
| |
|
|
|
Dr Strangelove
|
|
There are confusing reports about what caused the gym roof to collapse. Some reports say it collapsed after the terrorists' bombs went off, some say it collapsed after soldiers blew a hole in the wall. Does anyone know the facts?
|
|
| |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:24.
Apolyton Time is 00:24. |
top of page
|
| archivepost |
|
Forum Rules:
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
|
HTML code is ON
vB code is ON
Smilies are ON
[IMG] code is ON
|
|
|
|
|
|
07-09-2004 08:53
Smiley 
|