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BeBro
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of the Krauts
Mar 2000
time: 06:23
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.....it seems.
I was leaning towards a Turkish membership, but they shouldn't expect to have much chances when they continue with stunts like this:
quote:
EU irked by Turkish adultery law
Guenter Verheugen stressed the need for reforms during his visit
Turkey's plans to make adultery a crime could affect its chances of joining the European Union, EU enlargement commissioner Guenter Verheugen says.
The bill, to be presented to parliament next week, may be seen as Islamic law entering Turkish law, he warned.
Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a devout Muslim, says the bill will help protect women from deception.
An EU report due out in October will assess Turkey's progress towards meeting EU membership criteria.
The adultery law is part of a package of sweeping changes to the penal code, which include the abolition of torture and the expansion of individual liberties. The changes are an effort to bring Turkey's legal code into line with European human rights legislation.
Bad impression
Mr Verheugen, who has spent the last few days touring Turkey, expressed his concerns in an interview with the Turkish Vatan newspaper.
"If Turkey tries to include crimes that are not in other countries' laws in its penal code, European Union countries could interpret this as Islamic law entering Turkish law," he told the paper.
He added that he was not "defending adultery", but said "Turkey should not give the impression... that it is introducing Islamic elements into its legal system while engaged in a great project such as the EU".
We think that Turkey should join the EU, but not really accepting ... every aspect of European society at present
Temel Karamollaoglu,
Islamist Saadet party
Women's groups and liberal commentators have condemned the bill, saying it would be used against women and pushes the secular Muslim state closer to an Islamic legal model.
But the main opposition party says it will not challenge it, provided men face the same penalties as women.
The BBC's Virginia Gidley-Kitchin says adultery used to be illegal in Turkey until 1996, when the Constitutional Court struck the law down because it penalised women more than men.
Men were deemed to have been adulterous if they were involved in a long-term affair; but women could be charged if they were unfaithful only once.
Temel Karamollaoglu, a member of the Islamist Saadet party - which is more conservative than Mr Erdogan's governing AKP - says the law is necessary to protect the family and the society.
"At present adultery is accepted as a cause for divorce, and it is not accepted in society," he told the BBC. "The point is whether it should be punishable or not.
"We think that Turkey should join the EU, but not really accepting every detail in the moral value, not every aspect of European society at present. Countries may have different cultures. I accept European Union as a multi-cultural, multi-religious society."
Positive
Women's groups plan to demonstrate against the bill when it is presented to parliament on 14 September.
Canan Arin, of the Women's Rights Centre at the Istanbul Bar Association, says it is a violation of the constitution protecting individual's privacy.
"Everyone has the right to demand respect for his private and family life," she said. Ms Arin fears the bill will work against women, as traditional women are reluctant to complain about their husbands.
"If they bring it, it will provoke honour killings more than ever," she said.
The BBC's Jonny Dymond in Istanbul says Mr Verheugen has given the impression of enjoying his visit but has stressed that it is the implementation of reforms that he is most interested in.
He stressed that the use of torture must be punished and he called for further cultural freedoms for Turkey's large Kurdish community.
According to our correspondent, it seems pretty clear from his more informal comments and demeanour that Mr Verheugen wants to give Turkey the kind of report which would boost its membership hopes.
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Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3641026.stm
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:23
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The adultery issue is the number one story that everybody's talking about in Turkey and I can tell you there's quite an anger going in the direction of the government.
It's quite stupid on the part of the government to create a mess like this. It's also typical that they want to wrap the issue in a rheoric of equality. They tried this before, when they tried to legalise headscarf on the grounds that it was a human rights issue, and the whole thing blew back on them and they had to give up.
And now the adultery sh!t.  The problem with these people is that they still have some some spark of extreme conservatism in them. Paradoxically, they are also the government that produced more human rights and democracy reforms in recent histroy of the country (turning the notoriously meticulous European Commission speechless) but still stunts like this apparently have to come up.
I appreciate all the myriad reforms they did, but apparently we'll have to live with such antics. As another example, did you know that wives of many ministers and parlamentarians wear headscarves (inculding the prime minister) and therefore constantly excluded from state protocol? When there's a national reception or something, they (insistently) arrive single because the dress code of the occasion doesn't allow for headscarves. (protocol:   )
If they force the issue, it's still a long road for them, the President is almost sure to veto the bill, and if they push it again the constitutional court will surely step in. But hey, after all, isn't this the kind of stuff you'd want to see in a muslim country (constitutional battles, media pressure, civil rights groups pressure etc)? 
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VetLegion
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quote:
Originally posted by Ancyrean
If they force the issue, it's still a long road for them, the President is almost sure to veto the bill, and if they push it again the constitutional court will surely step in. But hey, after all, isn't this the kind of stuff you'd want to see in a muslim country (constitutional battles, media pressure, civil rights groups pressure etc)? |
I don't know if I am the only one, but I regard: constitutional court, president, media people and civil rights groups as cosmetics. These are easily the most progressivist parts of the society (foreign agents ), but constitute a tiny portion of it.
I'd like to hear that the run-of-the-mill Joe Sultan on the street opposes this bill (and others such).
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lord of the mark
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FUKCOV - Former United Kingdom Colony of Virginia
Dec 2000
time: 00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ancyrean
. But hey, after all, isn't this the kind of stuff you'd want to see in a muslim country (constitutional battles, media pressure, civil rights groups pressure etc)? |
Actually that IS the most important thing - NOT adultery or headscarves - but the free play of democracy, pressure groups, open debate, etc. Thats what makes me (and some others here in the US) so hopeful about Turkey, both in itself and as a model for the muslim world. There are however some here, and many in Europe, who put secularism above democracy, a viewpoint that plays out on many issues.
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
Actually that IS the most important thing - NOT adultery or headscarves - but the free play of democracy, pressure groups, open debate, etc. Thats what makes me (and some others here in the US) so hopeful about Turkey, both in itself and as a model for the muslim world. There are however some here, and many in Europe, who put secularism above democracy, a viewpoint that plays out on many issues. |
In addition, the prospect of Turkey's membership brought another dimension to the issue of secularism in Europe. The problem for many conservatives in Europe with Turkey is it's both Muslim and secular, which is the worst of both worlds for a Christian Democrat  .
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VetLegion
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quote:
Originally posted by Ancyrean
The catch here is, population increase slows down as the average income rises, as it has in Europe and even in Turkey over the past 20 years. From this perspective, EU membership would in fact help accelerate the slowdown of population increase. |
Yes. Turkey's population is still growing faster than that of any other country in Europe. It seems that demographic transition is not over in Turkey yet.
I would sure like to know some projections, since the ones I heard don't mention that the trend is a slowdown. In fact, I've heard it said that Kurdish population alone is expected to rise sharply...
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10-09-2004 16:59
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