11-09-2004 01:17									#61
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quote: Well I can, since you're both basing your opposition to subsidies on the fact that people you don't agree with benefit. Leave them out of it, and you'll be fine.

How could you leave them out of it, that would be discrimination.

	11-09-2004 01:22									#62
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Leave them out of your argument against subsidies, and your argument against subsidies will be fine.

	11-09-2004 01:28									#63
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A) I am not against subsidies. I am just saying that they're currently leading to disaster.
B) My argument "against subsidies" is that the subsidies, originally planned to sustain a healthy growth rate, have been subverted by some groups ( by manipulating their structure, and having more money given for the 5th, 6th, and later kids, than for the earlier).
Those groups will lead us to an enviromental, and social disaster.
So instead of sponsoring a healthy growth rate needed for a healthy society, they're sponsoring a timebomb.

	11-09-2004 01:31									#64
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Fun thread. If Turkey abolishes torture and becomes more democratic, how is Europe going to keep them out? By saying their 'adultery' law violates rights to privacy? Coming from countries which cameras all over the place to see what people are doing all the time?

It'll just expose the hypocrisy of the EU. Perhaps then Turkey will realize they'll never be accepted so they should do what they want.

	11-09-2004 01:33									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue It's also a way of having an Atheist union and doing a proper seperation of church and state

Calling the EU an Atheist Union is stupid and counter-productive. EU is secular. Religion is not a crime and that's a good thing -- making it a crime would criminalize thought.

	11-09-2004 01:34									#66
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quote: Calling the EU an Atheist Union is stupid and counter-productive. EU is secular. Religion is not a crime and that's a good thing -- making it a crime would criminalize thought.

Organized religion is a crime. Individuals can think what they want.

	11-09-2004 01:34									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Azazel A) I am not against subsidies. I am just saying that they're currently leading to disaster. B) My argument "against subsidies" is that the subsidies, originally planned to sustain a healthy growth rate, have been subverted by some groups ( by manipulating their structure, and having more money given for the 5th, 6th, and later kids, than for the earlier). Those groups will lead us to an enviromental, and social disaster. So instead of sponsoring a healthy growth rate needed for a healthy society, they're sponsoring a timebomb.

And that's the line of reasoning which seemed unsettling to me. You'd like to see a situation where only people you agree with would reproduce and benefit from subsidies. Which I find reminiscent of past inhuman policies of purified reproduction.

So we've come full circle.

	11-09-2004 01:35									#68
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quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed turkey is in asia. therefore, it should not be a part of the european union.

Military is stupid. Therefore, it should not have an Intelligence department.

	11-09-2004 01:38									#69
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quote: And that's the line of reasoning which seemed unsettling to me. You'd like to see a situation where only people you agree with would reproduce and benefit from subsidies.

What I mind is the fact that the reproduction is uncontrollable. These birthrates are not sustainable economically and enviromentally.

quote: Which I find reminiscent of past inhuman policies of purified reproduction. So we've come full circle.

	11-09-2004 01:39									#70
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Most likely there'll be referendums held on whether allowing Turkey to join would be a good idea, at least in some member states. The people will decide.

Personally I can see a case both for and against. But accepting Turkey only because the alternative would be for them to sink into Islamistic funadamentalism is not the most convincing argument. Surely there are ways of cooperating with Turkey, as has been the case for 30 years, even without granting membership.

	11-09-2004 01:45									#71
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Winston, the problem for Israel is not just the religious ideas of the 'mass-breeders'. Take a look on a map and you may realise that a population explosion in such a tiny and dry country is not really good. Water shortage is already a problem for many Palestinians. Soon it may become a big problem for everyone there.

Also, when half of the population is below working age, a huge part of the economy will be drained into supporting the children. Some people claim that Israel will end up being a third world country because of this.

	11-09-2004 01:46									#72
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Exactly,if you look at the risk board Turkey is most definelty in Asia, and since the EU is obviously nothing but a ploy to get Europes 5 extra armies each turn, it is a waste of resources.

	11-09-2004 01:50									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Combat Ingrid Winston, the problem for Israel is not just the religious ideas of the 'mass-breeders'. Take a look on a map and you may realise that a population explosion in such a tiny and dry country is not really good. Water shortage is already a problem for many Palestinians. Soon it may become a big problem for everyone there. Also, when half of the population is below working age, a huge part of the economy will be drained into supporting the children. Some people claim that Israel will end up being a third world country because of this.

No argument. They should advocate outphasing the subsidies, but they shouldn't base their argument on the fact that people with a different outlook have "too many" children. That's a sickening notion, and that's what I objected to.

Edit: I meant to say outphasing, not outfacing...

	11-09-2004 01:51									#74
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Then I guess maybe we all agree on the real problem! *group hug*

	11-09-2004 01:54									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Winston No argument. They should advocate outfacing the subsidies, but they shouldn't base their argument on the fact that people with a different outlook have "too many" children. That's a sickening notion, and that's what I objected to.

winston - if somebody said we need to subsidize child birth in Denmark, to insure that there are enough farmworkers to raise the pigs and milk the cows, and it turned out that the only people taking advantage of the subsidies were Vegans who refuse to work with pigs and cows, could that be considered a reason to not have the subsidy? Thats more or less the situation in Israel, where neither arabs (excluding the Druze and the Beduin) nor Ultraorthdox Jews, serve in the army.

	11-09-2004 02:00									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi So you've seen Pres. Bush's Cuban Statehood Plan, I take it. It's going to win him Florida, and all it requires is his re-election and Fidel's death.

Puerto Rico should be a full US state long before Cuba. And I don't see that happening soon, do you?

	11-09-2004 02:01									#77
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Well, I don't support subsidizing child birth to begin with, never have, but it's my opinion that if you do have it, you don't go snooping into the religious or other beliefs of the people who benefit. The only criteria that should matter, if you decide to apply it, is the income level of recipients, in other words whether they're needy or not.

	11-09-2004 02:02									#78
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc We call it divorce and it ends up being very expensive for the cheater.

It's cheaper to keep her!

	11-09-2004 02:13									#79
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By the way, why is US so obsessed by getting Turkey into EU? That is a matter of EU and no one else!

	11-09-2004 02:15									#80
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quote: Originally posted by St Leo quote: Originally posted by Q Cubed turkey is in asia. therefore, it should not be a part of the european union. Military is stupid. Therefore, it should not have an Intelligence department.

Are you making fun of me?

	11-09-2004 02:16									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie By the way, why is US so obsessed by getting Turkey into EU? That is a matter of EU and no one else!

1. theyre an ally in the WOT, a state that can serve as a model to the Muslim world, and EU entrance would help
2. It shows that the Euros who are so snooty about the backwards US, are discriminating against a country cause its moslem. (see US gloating about French Headscarf law)

	11-09-2004 02:19									#82
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quote: Well, I don't support subsidizing child birth to begin with, never have, but it's my opinion that if you do have it, you don't go snooping into the religious or other beliefs of the people who benefit. The only criteria that should matter, if you decide to apply it, is the income level of recipients, in other words whether they're needy or not.

Doesn't how many children they already have come into play? After all, there is a reason for this policy, and that is to have a healthy growth rate.

	11-09-2004 02:33									#83
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That's not really for me to answer, since as I've stated, I don't support this kind of subsidy. I believe people are capable of reproducing without economic incentive, and I tend to hold up the last 2 million years of history as evidence.

	11-09-2004 02:36									#84
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark 1. theyre an ally in the WOT, a state that can serve as a model to the Muslim world, and EU entrance would help 2. It shows that the Euros who are so snooty about the backwards US, are discriminating against a country cause its moslem. (see US gloating about French Headscarf law)

1) Name a country in Europe that is not (not that Turkey is in Europe, but anyway)

2) There is a large number of things to fix in Turkey. Being Muslim is not really the problem. Calling the French laws "headscarf ban" is a very biased way to interpret the situation. France is a secular nation, and bans ALL religious symbols in public schools, including crucifixes, David Stars and head scarfs. Hey, even Swedish schools ban head scarfs if they cover the face, as the teacher needs to recognize and emotionally interact with their students. It's common sense.

	11-09-2004 03:09									#85
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark winston - if somebody said we need to subsidize child birth in Denmark, to insure that there are enough farmworkers to raise the pigs and milk the cows, and it turned out that the only people taking advantage of the subsidies were Vegans who refuse to work with pigs and cows, could that be considered a reason to not have the subsidy? Thats more or less the situation in Israel, where neither arabs (excluding the Druze and the Beduin) nor Ultraorthdox Jews, serve in the army.

I believe Denmark (Belgium, France, etc...) already have a similar situation. They institued fat children subsidy programs to sponsor increasing the number of Danes (Belgians, French...), but it comes out the biggest beneficiaries of those programs are immigrants with large families

	11-09-2004 03:14									#86
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quote: even Swedish schools ban head scarfs if they cover the face

These head scarfs don't come close to covering the face. They just cover the hair.

And France's ban is dumb even more so since it bans Yarmulkes and crucifixes.

	11-09-2004 03:24									#87
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Banning Yarmulkes.

	11-09-2004 03:25									#88
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Well you are just a little Stalinist, aren't you?

	11-09-2004 03:30									#89
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quote: Well you are just a little Stalinist, aren't you?

You wouldn't laugh if you were forced to wear one through the first 6 years of school.

	11-09-2004 04:11									#90
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I never said Israel wasn't Fascist either .