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VetLegion
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Btw., does public education in Israel teach kids that they are the chosen people? I always wanted to ask that, and since you people are already threadjacking...
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Q Cubed
turkey is in asia. therefore, it should not be a part of the european union. |
Turkey is part of virtually every political, social, economic and other institutions of Europe. It has been part and parcel of the European diplomatic and political history for the past 500 years. It has a full customs union with the european union in place for around a decade and has been in membership dialogue with the EU for over 4 decades.
What's more, Turkey's qualification for applying for memebership to the EU is a debate settled long ago. Turkey right now meets EU's political criteria for membership so much so that the European Commission is at a loss to say something about shortcomings.
In light of these, "Turkey is in Asia" is a rather irrelevant basis to argue that it cannot be part of the EU.
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
2) There is a large number of things to fix in Turkey. Being Muslim is not really the problem. |
Like what? Turkey right now meets the Copenhagen criteria of the EU. Candidates with then-dubious human rights standards (Spain, Portugal after their long fascist regimes, Greece after its junta) were given the opportunity to start membership negotiations (which means there's no return) and in the time (usually years) that passed until they were concluded, countries were monitored for implementation.
Therefore, "there is a large number of things to fix in Turkey" is frankly not an argument not to start negotiations with Turkey, let alone to make a case against Turkish membership.
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Winston
Oh, don't resist saying racism. By all means go ahead.
In your last couple of posts you've all but accused the EU of eating Turkish children for breakfast.
...
Oh, and last time I checked, Turks were the same race as the rest of EU, but that is of course a minor point...
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I certainly did not mean such an extreme impression. I was just highlighting the point that most of the resons put forward against Turkish membership do not hold water (like Turkey is in Asia, like there's a lot in Turkey to fix etc).
I was further highlighting the fact that many in Europe put forward reasons other than what the EU is all about against Turkish membership (like it will be the end of Europe, like it's against the spirit of 1683) and that these are high level people. Upon your mentioning the public vote, I pointed to the great reluctance of the people in Europe, and meant their revulsion against Turkey is not only for economic reasons.
If this meant to say Europe has a racist perspective about Turkey, even if that statement is wrong, the point would still stand that Europe definitely gives this impression (to Turkey at least) and that for an average European it's worth stopping for a second and thinking the reasons behind this.
quote:
Originally posted by Winston
One wonders why Turkey is so eager to join a racist union - where according to you, the vast majority of people don't want them. |
Frankly Winston, that's a quite fair question. Turkey's reasons are quite different than the considerations of Europe.
In Turkey, when the republic was declared 81 years ago, it was such a great challenge to modernise an illiterate, agrarian population with a heavy emphasis on religion, a new kind of thinking was advanced. Against the backdrop of an Imperial Muslim past and the reality of a 99% Muslim population, the general idea you get as you grow up is that yes, we are different and we have a unique history and we left our mark in world, but we would not be abondoning all that if we accept what the others (even if it's from those against whom we have been fighting for centuries) have invented in science and administration. There is a common denomnator of mankind and we have to go there.
That was the spirit and through this spirit the social revolution in Turkey made headway. This of course brought with itself an identity crisis, because alone with this mindset in the Muslim world and despised by the advanced West, there inevitable developed a debate about where we are going.
EU exemplifies the next level of democracy that the founding fathers of the republic envisioned, without EU Turkey could still go it alone in its evolution. But with the EU it would shortcut the process by some decades and answer conclusively the identity question. The economic benefits come later.
This is a rather hasty attempt to write down a complex issue, but I hope it makes some sense. 
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Spiffor
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CPA - Evil Clone brigade
Nov 2001
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Ah, I see, so crosses not of "exaggerated proportions" are ok? How... convenient. |
Many people wear their religious symbol on their necklace here. Be it a David's star, a crescent, or a cross. None of those are banned.
However, you can get asked to remove a part of your external clothing, if, say, it pictures a huge Christian cross.
Skywalker:
It is embarassing, and definitely not convenient. This law was made to defend the dogma of a religionless school, and this dogma was established back when the Republic struggled against the Catholic religion. Our government has tried very hard to come up with something to ban for each religion.
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Combat Ingrid
The same is going on in many other muslim states close to Europe. Fertility rates have dropped sharply, but most people there are still young and produce new people instead of dying of old age. However, in a few decades from now, they will probably also start aging like us Euros |
And then, they'll have to find workers, and will have to take them from young christian/pagan states of Africa, and they'll be afraid of losing their culture....
quote:
[SIZE=1]
I hope Turkey is eventually admited because I would rather see a secular western leaning Turkey then a religious Arab looking Turkey. It looks like a choice between those two options. |
Well, Turkey can make a move towards religious - flavoured politics after it enters EU
But generally I agree, letting Turkey in can have some benefitial effects.
I'm just afraid that when it enters EU, it will never even think of checking if its claims about Armenian thing wasn't
wrong by a chance. And that it will block Armenian entrance.
Also, I was suprised to learn that my Turkish friend didn't know Ilias story until He watched this film with Brad Pitt.
I don't know how is it with Turkish education, but ancient Greece stuff should be obligatory in every European state
quote:
Organized religion is a crime. Individuals can think what they want.
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The same You can criticise any organisation.
quote:
By the way, why is US so obsessed by getting Turkey into EU? That is a matter of EU and no one else!
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It is a way of showing how nice America is to Muslims without changing its politics towards Israel
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11-09-2004 04:11
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