10-09-2004 23:43									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

turkey is in asia. therefore, it should not be a part of the european union.

	10-09-2004 23:43									#32
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

2.5? we get the same from the jewish population here!

	10-09-2004 23:46									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Az: isn't most of that coming from the ultra-religious nutcases who try to outbreed the arabs?

	10-09-2004 23:54									#34
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Combat Ingrid, CIA world factbook (I know, I know) says fertility is even lower than your figure (1.98 children per woman) but also gives a population growth rate of 1.13%.

	10-09-2004 23:55									#35
	Support Apolyton

well, you see you're mixing two distinct populations, the ultra -religious and the religious settlers.

Muslims have it at somewhere around 4.1
Christians have it at ~2.2
Druze at ~2.4
and the rest ( which is categorized as generic 'jews' but also includes "non jew" Russians, who immigrated with the families)

The jews have, however, a couple of sub categories, that I know no research of:
-Secular ( people like me). I imagine our numbers to be abover replacement numbers, but only slightly so ( PERFECT )
- Religious Settlers ( kiddie bonanza!)
- Ultra-Orthodox: (read above)

But since the relative numbers of the 2 lower groups in the "jews" population always rise ( sigh), that means that after a minimum some time ahead, the jewish reproduction rates will start to rise!

So, basically, normal people don't breed here, only nutcases, and they will elect future governments.

I told you we were a perfectly normal country.

	10-09-2004 23:57									#37
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

i never understood why the hell adultery isn't a crime in america? Can you at least file a suit against a spouse who committed adultery? I don't think you can even do that in America.

	10-09-2004 23:58									#38
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Azazel So, basically, normal people don't breed here, only nutcases, and they will elect future governments. I told you we were a perfectly normal country.

However, isn't this in the best pragmatic interest of the Jewish state, and even encouraged by the state?

	11-09-2004 00:03									#39
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer Can you at least file a suit against a spouse who committed adultery? I don't think you can even do that in America.

We call it divorce and it ends up being very expensive for the cheater.

	11-09-2004 00:04									#40
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Chemical Ollie In my opinion, Turkey has the same chance of becoming a full EU member within 10 years as Cuba has the chance of becoming a full US state within the same time.

So you've seen Pres. Bush's Cuban Statehood Plan, I take it. It's going to win him Florida, and all it requires is his re-election and Fidel's death.

	11-09-2004 00:04									#41
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Combat Ingrid, CIA world factbook (I know, I know) says fertility is even lower than your figure (1.98 children per woman) but also gives a population growth rate of 1.13%.

Found this:

quote: Population Momentum: The tendency for population growth to continue beyond the time that replacement-level fertility has been achieved because of the relatively high concentration of people in the childbearing years. (Also see momentum factors and decreasing population momentum.)

http://www.ecofuture.org/pop/terms.html

	11-09-2004 00:13									#42
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: We call it divorce and it ends up being very expensive for the cheater.

stop bringing facts into the argument.

	11-09-2004 00:15									#43
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: We call it divorce and it ends up being very expensive for the cheater.

alright so adultery is considered in divorce cases... i was under the impression it wasn't what with that whole no-fault divorce business... wait a second...

	11-09-2004 00:18									#44
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: However, isn't this in the best pragmatic interest of the Jewish state, and even encouraged by the state?

Sure, having kids is encouraged. Sadly, some people are more encouraged than others.

	11-09-2004 00:27									#45
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Albert Speer alright so adultery is considered in divorce cases... i was under the impression it wasn't what with that whole no-fault divorce business... wait a second...

depends on the state, IIUC.

Remember Clinton and his argument about what "sex" meant. He wasnt pulling that out of his hat - theres actually a body of law about what sex is, related to divorce cases, IIUC.

	11-09-2004 00:29									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Azazel Sure, having kids is encouraged. Sadly, some people are more encouraged than others.

So basically, you think that only people you like and agree with should be permitted to reproduce? Now, where have I heard this line of reasoning before.

	11-09-2004 00:30									#47
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Azazel quote: However, isn't this in the best pragmatic interest of the Jewish state, and even encouraged by the state? Sure, having kids is encouraged. Sadly, some people are more encouraged than others.

"Menachem Friedman, a sociologist in Bar Ilan who has written extensively about the chassidic/Yeshiva community, told me that the fertility rate of the strictly Orthodox population in Israel is 7.5 births per family -- almost three times that of the secularists in Israel, whose fertility rate stands at around 2.7 births. (The secularists in Israel, by the way, are doing much better than American Jews, with approximately 1.6 births per woman.)"

Im not sure of the definition of secularists = probably includes all the Sephardic "masorti" (in the sense of traditional, not Conservative movement) Still thats a pretty high fertility rate compared to most developed countries.

As for the subsidies, the simple answer would be to provide a subsidy for the third, or even fourth child, and none beyond that, since few secular Jews have more than four children (?) and few orthodox Jews or Arabs have that few. Dont think the political will is there yet, though.

	11-09-2004 00:33									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Winston So basically, you think that only people you like and agree with should be permitted to reproduce? Now, where have I heard this before...

Everyone should be permitted to reproduce. The question is, if the state is subsidizing reproduction, for the sake of strategic safety, and the subsidy is mainly encouraging reproduction of people who A. Oppose the states existence (many Israeli Arabs) or B. Wont lift a finger to defend the state (some ultraorthodox Jews) or C. Endanger the state by their nationalist extremism (certain Orthodox settlers) does it still make sense to have such a subsidy?

	11-09-2004 00:37									#49
	Tired of ads?

lotm,

I was just refering to Az' qualifier of "sad" when it comes to certain people that he's obviously in disagreement with having kids, re. the previous posts in this thread.

I found it a bit unsettling, that's all. You don't get to pick and choose among other people's view on life and the world. Otherwise you could just as easily justify IQ tests and the like among prospective parents.

	11-09-2004 00:46									#50
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Winston lotm, I was just refering to Az' qualifier of "sad" when it comes to certain people that he's obviously in disagreement with having kids, re. the previous posts in this thread.

I cant speak for him, but i rather doubt that hes sad that arabs and orthodox jews are having kids. I suspect hes sad at the relative demographic decline of secular Jews, and that state policy is inadvertently encouraging this.

	11-09-2004 00:48									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

7.5?!!!!

well, I see a very intersting war going on between some 20,000,000 palestinians, and some 15,000,000 jews over here, around 2070.....

	11-09-2004 00:49									#52
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I cant speak for him, but i rather doubt that hes sad that arabs and orthodox jews are having kids. I suspect hes sad at the relative demographic decline of secular Jews, and that state policy is inadvertently encouraging this.

Well, I'm sad that conservative people aren't significantly out-reproducing leftists. The world would be so much better off if people I disagree with stopped reproducing altogether.

	11-09-2004 00:49									#53
	Put an end to popups!

quote: I cant speak for him, but i rather doubt that hes sad that arabs and orthodox jews are having kids. I suspect hes sad at the relative demographic decline of secular Jews, and that state policy is inadvertently encouraging this.

I am sad that arabs and orthodox jews are having so many kids that life here in the future will be unbearable...

	11-09-2004 00:52									#54
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Winston Well, I'm sad that conservative people aren't significantly out-reprodrucing leftists. The world would be so much better off if people I disagree with stopped reproducing altogether.

Is your govt subsidizing reproduction? Do Danish leftists call for the elimination of the Danish state, or alternatively consider the Danish state a stepping stone to the Messianic age, to be tossed aside like an old ladder when the Messiah arrives?

	11-09-2004 00:54									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Azazel 7.5?!!!! well, I see a very intersting war going on between some 20,000,000 palestinians, and some 15,000,000 jews over here, around 2070.....

Az - in say, 1910 the Orthodox in Eastern Europe undoubtedly had a much higher Fertility rate than the secular Jews - yet the secular jews grew past the O. Cause the seculars ATTRACTED the children of the O to become seculars. Harder now, as O has learned a lot of hard lessons. Are the seculars still able to come up with an attractive culture?

	11-09-2004 00:57									#56
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

The government subsidizes child families by around $2.5 billions a year, in this country of ca. 5 mio people. $2,000+ per child per year, from birth until they're 18.

IMO, the question of what specific policies are supported by people with high birth rates is none of other people's business. Otherwise you're basically supporting selective reproduction only by people you like and agree with. Which has been done before in history in various, not-so-charming ways, I dare say.

	11-09-2004 01:00									#57
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Once Turkey's population growth slows down to the rate found in the rest of Europe then the Turkeyaphobes will lose one of their most emotional arguements.

I hope Turkey is eventually admited because I would rather see a secular western leaning Turkey then a religious Arab looking Turkey. It looks like a choice between those two options.

	11-09-2004 01:02									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Winston . IMO, the question of what specific policies are supported by people with high birth rates is none of other people's business. Otherwise you're basically supporting selective reproduction only by people you like and agree with. Which has been done before in history in various, not-so-charming ways, I dare say.

I cant see equating the questioning of a policy of subsidizing child birth with supporting a policy of discrimination among groups.

	11-09-2004 01:04									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark I cant see equating the questioning of a policy of subsidizing child birth with supporting a policy of discrimination among groups.

Well I can, since you're both basing your opposition to subsidies on the fact that people you don't agree with benefit. Leave them out of it, and you'll be fine.

	11-09-2004 01:08									#60
	Tired of ads?

quote: Az - in say, 1910 the Orthodox in Eastern Europe undoubtedly had a much higher Fertility rate than the secular Jews - yet the secular jews grew past the O. Cause the seculars ATTRACTED the children of the O to become seculars. Harder now, as O has learned a lot of hard lessons. Are the seculars still able to come up with an attractive culture?

They're now attracting the young and empoverished, sponsored by the state. Man, I feel like crying....