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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Spiffor
And he was damn right IMHO.
I'm a strong supporter of an empowered EU, but there are some matters that are to be left in the hands of Member-States. I mean: we have countries where abortion is banned. As much as I disagree with these countries, it's their call to lift the ban or not. Just like as much as I disagree with the criminalisation of adultery, it's typically the kind of issue where it's Turkey's call, not the EU's. |
So far, the EU commissioner for enlargement is quite adamant about this issue and today's headlines in Turkish press is all about his latest remark that without the whole reform package gets passed, no date for negotiations can ever start. Commission's final progress report on Turkey is due 6 October, so in fact even if Erdoğan lets himself be convinced by the EU, he's quite short on time to get things going.
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ancyrean
On a lighter note, my quite fair complexion creates a huge impression when girls here learn I myself am a Muslim   Not that they wouldn't hang out with non-muslims but it certainly draws the attention positively to me since they are not used to see a Muslim buleh (white man) and I surely am not comlplaining about that . And the girls here, I must tell you, are quite relaxed in general
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Congratulations 
What are You doing there, anyway?
Calisiyorsun?
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That's understandable for me, thinking about how much an average person in Turkey knows the difference between peoples of this corner of the world.
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I assure You though, that an average person in western Europe or America doesn't.
In Poland it is better, much better, but still people think that Persians died out after Persian Wars and Iran is Arabic....
Well, some Arabs of Maghrib have the same impression...
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Similarly, many solemn ceremonies like opening of the parliament and so on start with a religious ceremony, complete with verses from Quran and colective prayers for succes, people greeting each other as well as audiences with Islamic greetings, which is for my secular sense rather puzzling.
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That's nothing special. The same in Poland - just catholic rite...
Islamisation of Indonesia is still something impressing for me. A biggest Muslim society borned on margin of Muslim world actually.
I don't know anything about it, just that before Muslims, there were some Nestorian traders, and after that Muslim ones, who spread Islam. Do You know how did it look exactly?
Do Indonesians have the same frenzy attitude to Israel - Palestine stuff as large part of Muslim world?
How do the mosques look like?
I think I remember that long time ago, there were some riots there (no, not Timor), directed against wealthy Chineese, who were supposed to be largely Christian, or something. Are there many Chineese in Indonesia?
They seem to be everywhere in the region.
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Congratulations
What are You doing there, anyway?
Calisiyorsun?
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Evet çalışıyorum Cakarta çok güzel bir kent
I remember you told me your grandparents emigrated from Turkey to Poland, are you still learning Turkish?
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
I don't know anything about it, just that before Muslims, there were some Nestorian traders, and after that Muslim ones, who spread Islam. Do You know how did it look exactly? |
IIRC, it was the Arab traders who brought Islam to Indonesia, and that's not before around 15th century. Again, IIRC, the dominant religion here before the advent of Islam was Hindu here. Later on, as convert-Muslim kingdoms of Sumatra expanded eastwards, eventually conquering all of Java. Hindus took refuge in Bali, where they managed to hold their ground and even today Bali is predominantly Hindu
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Do Indonesians have the same frenzy attitude to Israel - Palestine stuff as large part of Muslim world?
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The Middle East is not so much on the headlines here, but if the topic comes up they're not pro-Israeli and officially Indonesia condemns Israel for its policies, but then again, this is not a central issue in foreign affairs of the country.
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
How do the mosques look like?
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For me, they look more look like in the Arab-Oriental style than what I'm used to in Turkey. Here is a rough example:
 Attachment: mos2.jpg
This has been downloaded 57 time(s).
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
I think I remember that long time ago, there were some riots there (no, not Timor), directed against wealthy Chineese, who were supposed to be largely Christian, or something. Are there many Chineese in Indonesia?
They seem to be everywhere in the region. |
IIRC, Chinese constitute 3% of the population here and they hold in their hands a whopping 50-60% of the wealth in the country. You can imagine they are not the most popular group in ndonesia
Riots, yes, in 1998 I guess, but that did not start as a riot against the Chinese per se, it was against the autocrat Soeharto, ruling the country for 32-years then. The rioters also vented their frustration against the Chinese in the turmoil.
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:23
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Latest development on the adultery stint:
Turkish prime minister flew to Brussels to meet with EU people and "clarify" what he meant. Basically, he turned out to have made a complete u-turn, saying that adultery is not an issue at all, that he won't press for it and during his government's time it won't come up again.
In addition, he summoned the parliament (currently not in session) in an extraordinary session to approve the penal code reform as a whole without changes this sunday, that is two days from today. Wow!
Man, what an (pleasant) end to what a (twisted) story, but there's one bright side for Turkey: The EU Commission agreed to put forward no further conditions before Turkey, practically promising to start negotiations with Turkey with no additional demands, inherently accepting that Turkey's progress so far is good enough to open negotiations. 
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ancyrean
Evet çalışıyorum Cakarta çok güzel bir kent
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Maalesef Varsova cok guzel bir kent degil. 
quote:
I remember you told me your grandparents emigrated from Turkey to Poland, are you still learning Turkish?
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No, it were my teacher's grandparents that emmigrated from Turkey.
Mine grandpa was (officially, as I mentioned, I have some doubts) Armenian. And Polish Armenians used to speak Turkish and are considered Turks by turkologists. That's my only tie to Turkey.
Except for that when I finally become Byzantine Emperor,
my residence shall be Istanbul (Heressonia Magna).
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IIRC, it was the Arab traders who brought Islam to Indonesia, and that's not before around 15th century. Again, IIRC, the dominant religion here before the advent of Islam was Hindu here. Later on, as convert-Muslim kingdoms of Sumatra expanded eastwards, eventually conquering all of Java. Hindus took refuge in Bali, where they managed to hold their ground and even today Bali is predominantly Hindu
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Interesting.
What's about this most eastern part, the one that is on New Guinea island?
Was it muslim also before it was added to Indonesia? Or was it added only because it was Dutch as the rest before?
And what's the turmoil going on there?
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The Middle East is not so much on the headlines here, but if the topic comes up they're not pro-Israeli and officially Indonesia condemns Israel for its policies, but then again, this is not a central issue in foreign affairs of the country.
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That's a sobre attitude :b
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For me, they look more look like in the Arab-Oriental style than what I'm used to in Turkey. Here is a rough example: |
hm.... The nicest mosques are Mamluk ones in Cairo, with imperial Turkish close behind.
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VetLegion
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quote:
However, critics in Ankara fear that Europe may be reluctant to embrace mainly Muslim Turkey on any terms.
Turkish European hopes were rattles when the Catholic Church's most senior theologian said Turkey should not attempt to join the European Union because it is a majority Muslim country with Muslim roots.
Turkey should seek its future in an association of Muslim nations rather than try to join a European community with Christian roots, the Vatican's Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger said on 11 August.
The doctrinal head of the Roman Catholic Church said Turkey had always been "in permanent contrast to Europe" and linking it to Europe would be a mistake. |
http://english.aljazeera.net/englis...eakingNews.aspx
Ratzinger is the unofficial spokesman of the Catholic Church. I didn't know they were opposed to Turkey's membership.
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Maalesef Varsova cok guzel bir kent degil.
No, it were my teacher's grandparents that emmigrated from Turkey.
Mine grandpa was (officially, as I mentioned, I have some doubts) Armenian. And Polish Armenians used to speak Turkish and are considered Turks by turkologists. That's my only tie to Turkey.
Except for that when I finally become Byzantine Emperor,
my residence shall be Istanbul (Heressonia Magna).
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Hey, your Turkish seems fine to me, keep it up! Unless of course you'd want to change the language of the city when you move in to Istan...I mean Heresonnia Magna
How come the Polish Armenians speak Turkish? I assumed they must have emigrated from Turkey some time in history?
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What's about this most eastern part, the one that is on New Guinea island?
Was it muslim also before it was added to Indonesia? Or was it added only because it was Dutch as the rest before?
And what's the turmoil going on there? |
The easternmost part of Indonesia used to be called Irian Jaya, but is now called Papua. It's an area larger than Germany but with less than 2.5 million people. The natives are of Melanesian stock in contrast to the rest of Indonesia. Indonesia acquired it from the Dutch more than a decade after their independence.
People there used to be predominantly Christian and adherents of tribal religions but after annexing West Papua, hundreds of thousands of (Muslim) settlers were moved to the region (accelerated in the 1990s) to create a local base for the government. The problem (for Indonesia) is that the diplomatic arrangements paving the way for the area's annexation to Indonesia also foresaw a possibility of a vote of self determination and following on that there's an independence movement there mostly by the indigenous people of Papua. It caused some trouble in the past but now it's mostly suppressed, though still active.
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ancyrean
Hey, your Turkish seems fine to me, keep it up! Unless of course you'd want to change the language of the city when you move in to Istan...I mean Heresonnia Magna
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It won't be necessary if I will be able to speak good Turkish.
I was supposed to go on a Turkish course this year for a month to Turkey, but couldn't due to a big exam.
My Turkish sucks... really... I just know basic grammar constructions and a couple of words.
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How come the Polish Armenians speak Turkish? I assumed they must have emigrated from Turkey some time in history?
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Well, originally the eastern Turkey was Armenia, so You may say so
But they used to speak a Turkish language because these were the Armenians of Crimea, which was Turkish-speaking.
They themselves called this language tatarca (it has the -ca ending, like in Turkish ), which means the language of Tatars - of Crimean Tatars.
The story of Papua is sad, but I guess many countries did similar stuff. It should be given autonomy or whatever.
Vatican has no real power to stop Turkey from entering Europe, except for encouraging people to voting against it. And it's an influence You can't just laugh at.
Also, it has reasons to not want Turkey in.
But I think Vatican is commiting a mistake. Turkey will join EU finallym and its people will remember Vatican its opposition. Instead of complaining, RCC should try to convert Turkey if it likes.
Personally, (Ancyrean will be angry), I'd be pleased if EU would insist on Turkey to change its policy of denying what happened to Armenians and Syrians (it is a very touchy matter, I'm afraid that EU intervening would just make Turks angry, but not discussing about it would be like saying it is all OK)
Also, I'd like EU to make Turkey open the boarder with Armenia,
promess it won't block Armenian or Georgian membership,
and perhaps to make some little territory exchange so that ruins of Ani, one of former Armenian capitals and at least one slope of Ararat mountain would be inside Armenia.
For Turkey these are just a big mountain and a couple of ruins, that may be touristic attraction, but with none emotional significance. For Armenia they are their holy places.
This is just over the boarder, so it would be just tiny correctures, and would mean a lot.
But again, asking Turkey for it could just make it angry. I know it was proposed before, but without any effects.
Just a dream, unfortunatelly
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Personally, (Ancyrean will be angry), I'd be pleased if EU would insist on Turkey to change its policy of denying what happened to Armenians and Syrians (it is a very touchy matter, I'm afraid that EU intervening would just make Turks angry, but not discussing about it would be like saying it is all OK)
Also, I'd like EU to make Turkey open the boarder with Armenia, promess it won't block Armenian or Georgian membership, and perhaps to make some little territory exchange so that ruins of Ani, one of former Armenian capitals and at least one slope of Ararat mountain would be inside Armenia.
For Turkey these are just a big mountain and a couple of ruins, that may be touristic attraction, but with none emotional significance. For Armenia they are their holy places.
This is just over the boarder, so it would be just tiny correctures, and would mean a lot.
But again, asking Turkey for it could just make it angry. I know it was proposed before, but without any effects.
Just a dream, unfortunatelly |
Well, I'm not angry at all, the idea of making a linkage between EU membership and the Armenian issue has already been floated by some in Europe, but it found no significant support as the issue is not as definitive as Armenians would like to believe.
Your reference to territorial concessions would indeed never be likely to happen, as you rightly suggest. Incredulous as it may sound to you, the Turkish public in general and people of Eastern Turkey in particular still vividly remember the atrocities committed by Armenians during their effort to carve a state for themselves there, and that's what would make any territorial correction (however tiny as it may seem) as part an apologetic move towards Armenia an outrage of greater magnitude.
Turkey's border with Armenia remains closed, but Turkey is not engaged in a self-imposed blockade of Armenia. There are regular chartered flights from Yerevan to Istanbul, for example, which is a most valuable link for Armenia. Armenia still does not recognise its border with Turkey, which is in the 21st century the minimum required for normalised relations. The fact that Armenia keeps 25% of Azerbaijan (our ethnic cousins) occupied also doesn't impress anybody in Turkey, hence increasing the already high level state of inter-state distrust.
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ancyrean
Your reference to territorial concessions would indeed never be likely to happen, as you rightly suggest.
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yes, but that's why I think exchange of territory would be the case
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Incredulous as it may sound to you, the Turkish public in general and people of Eastern Turkey in particular still vividly remember the atrocities committed by Armenians during their effort to carve a state for themselves there, and that's what would make any territorial correction (however tiny as it may seem) as part an apologetic move towards Armenia an outrage of greater magnitude.
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Part of this memory at least is result of Turkish propaganda.
Very bad propagands, to say the elast. I've already mentioned I've read a passage in Turkish book about it.
It was something like that Armenians were 5% minority in this region (which is misleading, they could be a 5% minority in entire Ottoman Empire), and they, in 1mln number themselves, managed to kill 1 mln Turkish women and children...
Which would mean Armenians would have to kill more people that they counted themselves... Not to mention these grounds were not inhabited by Turks, but Kurds in general.
Oh, I'm sure some Armenians collaborated with Russians, just like I'm sure some Bulgarians did.
I can believe some atrocities were commited, especially that Armenians were massacred earlier and they could "take their revenge" or whatever. But Armenians had no technical possibilities to make atrocities on large scale.
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Armenia still does not recognise its border with Turkey, which is in the 21st century the minimum required for normalised relations.
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There are reasons for it
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The fact that Armenia keeps 25% of Azerbaijan (our ethnic cousins) occupied also doesn't impress anybody in Turkey, hence increasing the already high level state of inter-state distrust. |
Turkey can not punish Armenia for its politics in Azerbeydzan.
Btw, I was on a meeting with an Azerbeydzan representative.
My friend told me to miss my lessons, because it will be fun.
Ineed it was.
He told us that Armenians "are just like Jews"
and that it was Russia placed them between Turkey and Azerbeydzan to make both angry.
When I told Him that they lived there before Azers and Turks came there, He told us that the Armenians of modern Armenia are in fact Armenians of modern-day Turkey who, expelled from it, settled on Azer territory
Later on, He described Armenians as cockroaches and warned us that He's seen them here already and that they will claim Poland as a part of historical Armenia soon
It was fun indeed. But the guy was OK except for that
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Part of this memory at least is result of Turkish propaganda.
Very bad propagands, to say the elast. I've already mentioned I've read a passage in Turkish book about it.
It was something like that Armenians were 5% minority in this region (which is misleading, they could be a 5% minority in entire Ottoman Empire), and they, in 1mln number themselves, managed to kill 1 mln Turkish women and children...
Which would mean Armenians would have to kill more people that they counted themselves... Not to mention these grounds were not inhabited by Turks, but Kurds in general.
Oh, I'm sure some Armenians collaborated with Russians, just like I'm sure some Bulgarians did.
I can believe some atrocities were commited, especially that Armenians were massacred earlier and they could "take their revenge" or whatever. But Armenians had no technical possibilities to make atrocities on large scale. |
Part of the memory is propoganda? My grandfather is from the town of Van, and that town has seen its share of suffering under Armenians.
Well a dubious passage in a book you read should not stop you from trying to learn what the Turks are in fact saying. Of course 5% is a low number, but they were by no means anywhere near an overall majority in Eastern Turkey.
Armenian agitations were far more and better organised than you seem to give them credit for. They were hoarding weapons inside and outside Turkey for years, and when they finally found the opportunity they rose up in revolt, dealing significant damage to the supply of Turkish army, at the same time engaging in their own ethnic cleansing in order to "rectify" the injustice of "barbarians" having settled in "their" land for centuries. Their actions were quite deliberate, and in the absence of state authority Turkish people atttacked their Armenian neighbours in return and this created a vicious circle. You can add to that the Armenian regiments introduced to the region under the Tsarist army. That the government was forced to attempt a wholesale relocation is a testimony of the success of the damage they had done.
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Turkey can not punish Armenia for its politics in Azerbeydzan. |
Well, Armenia's invasion of Azerbaijan is not the cause but just one of the reasons that the relations between the two countries are not normal.
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Btw, I was on a meeting with an Azerbeydzan representative.
My friend told me to miss my lessons, because it will be fun.
Ineed it was.
He told us that Armenians "are just like Jews"
and that it was Russia placed them between Turkey and Azerbeydzan to make both angry.
When I told Him that they lived there before Azers and Turks came there, He told us that the Armenians of modern Armenia are in fact Armenians of modern-day Turkey who, expelled from it, settled on Azer territory
Later on, He described Armenians as cockroaches and warned us that He's seen them here already and that they will claim Poland as a part of historical Armenia soon
It was fun indeed. But the guy was OK except for that |
Sure that guy was ridiculous, at least as far as his ideas go.
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ancyrean
Part of the memory is propoganda? My grandfather is from the town of Van, and that town has seen its share of suffering under Arqmenians.
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Hm...
Tell me his entire story
Also, I remember there was an Armenian uprising in Van... Even if the rebels did some harm, this is no excuse for eliminating entire Armenian population of the city after it was captured
And it's not just "one passage".
It's a general attitude. A Turkish friend of mine actually tried to prove me Turks were there before Armenians...
Armenian or Greek sounding names of cities were changed...
(btw, I've heard a film about them is a major hit in Turkey)
Up till recently, Kurds were officially Turkish Highlanders, and their language, though of completely different language group, was considered a "Turkish dialect"
And no minority officially existed except for in Constantinople
Bah, Ataturk even had his Sun Theory which claimed that Turkish is the mother of all the other languages in the world...
It makes me doubt that in Armenian case, Turks are being objective
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Well a dubious passage in a book you read should not stop you from trying to learn what the Turks are in fact saying. Of course 5% is a low number, but they were by no means anywhere near an overall majority in Eastern Turkey.
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Hm... Surely the number dependa on which grounds do we mean, really; but even if Armenians weren't a majority, just a big minority on most of the claimed theritory, they should get part of it or at least get some autonomy.
Also, still, Turks weren't a majority on many of these lands too.
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Armenian agitations were far more and better organised than you seem to give them credit for. They were hoarding weapons inside and outside Turkey for years, and when they finally found the opportunity they rose up in revolt, dealing significant damage to the supply of Turkish army, at the same time engaging in their own ethnic cleansing in order to "rectify" the injustice of "barbarians" having settled in "their" land for centuries. Their actions were quite deliberate, and in the absence of state authority Turkish people atttacked their Armenian neighbours in return and this created a vicious circle. You can add to that the Armenian regiments introduced to the region under the Tsarist army. That the government was forced to attempt a wholesale relocation is a testimony of the success of the damage they had done.
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I may argue about blaiming partisants, but even if their activity is true (they'd have to be mad to attempt a cleansing while being behind the front line), the response to that activity (which itself may be treaten as a response to earlier Turkish/Kurd activity), was much worse than what some of the Armenians did.
Even in Your story, it weren't Armenians as a whole that did the harm. And, after all, the result is that Armenians were ethnically cleansed, not the other way round.
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Also, I remember there was an Armenian uprising in Van... Even if the rebels did some harm, this is no excuse for eliminating entire Armenian population of the city after it was captured
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I know some of the stories that Armenians tell of Turks, and stories I heard from the Turkish side is equally unpleasant. Rather than trying to detail some of them (and thereby risk flaming an already sensitive issue), I'd just say my point was to draw attention to thefact that the acts of violence in the beginning were both ways.
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
And it's not just "one passage".
It's a general attitude. A Turkish friend of mine actually tried to prove me Turks were there before Armenians...
Armenian or Greek sounding names of cities were changed...
(btw, I've heard a film about them is a major hit in Turkey)
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Well forget about him. It's a useless way to try to show "ownership rights" like that, it tries to avoid the real tragedy we have to talk about.
I don't remember hearing about the movie though.
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
Up till recently, Kurds were officially Turkish Highlanders, and their language, though of completely different language group, was considered a "Turkish dialect"
And no minority officially existed except for in Constantinople
Bah, Ataturk even had his Sun Theory which claimed that Turkish is the mother of all the other languages in the world...
It makes me doubt that in Armenian case, Turks are being objective |
Turkey's attitude regarding Kurds have improved light years forward since then. It was of course ridiculous to try to brand them "mountain Turks" and such, and I'm happy this charade came to an end
Wow you know about Ataturk's Sun Theory? You impressed me know Yes, it's a theory he put forward and diligently wished proved true, but alas, it did not survive his death.
On objectivity, how much credit would you yourself give to Armenians?
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I may argue about blaiming partisants, but even if their activity is true (they'd have to be mad to attempt a cleansing while being behind the front line), the response to that activity (which itself may be treaten as a response to earlier Turkish/Kurd activity), was much worse than what some of the Armenians did. |
Well I would be ready to admit that Armenians suffered tremendously in the end. But I would also note that the act of relocation was in reaction to a certain action and was a desperate rather than a planned act. There were quite a few Armenians who thought like you, that it's all madness, but they had no power in the face of nationalist agitants.
I guess it is also admittable enough that the local governors on the way of relocees failed miserably to provide for such numbers on the road.
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ancyrean
I know some of the stories that Armenians tell of Turks, and stories I heard from the Turkish side is equally unpleasant. Rather than trying to detail some of them (and thereby risk flaming an already sensitive issue), I'd just say my point was to draw attention to thefact that the acts of violence in the beginning were both ways.
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Even if they were,
You can't put an = between Armenian violence and Turkish one. Turks had a state, Armenians did not. Armenians were not an equal partner in this confrontation
Also, the final result shows, which one was more hurt.
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Turkey's attitude regarding Kurds have improved light years forward since then. It was of course ridiculous to try to brand them "mountain Turks" and such, and I'm happy this charade came to an end
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But it proves Turkey was a bit mad about national affairs, doesn't it...
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Wow you know about Ataturk's Sun Theory? You impressed me know Yes, it's a theory he put forward and diligently wished proved true, but alas, it did not survive his death.
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I remember one Turkish professor, asked about why did He stop lecturing the Sun Theory, said "How can we teach it after the Sun (Ataturk) went down?"
I went succesfully through Turkology studies entrance exam after all...
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On objectivity, how much credit would you yourself give to Armenians?
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You mean, what they are to be blamed?
First of all, lack of realism. Secondly, rushness or how to call that;
until they were sure Russians would take Armenia, they should've acted completely calm, all of them, no matter what.
If they just got through the reign of that Comitee of (don't know English words, Progress and something), they would have been fine probably, and today they might have an autonomy or independance on part of those lands. Turkish actions can't be pardoned, though.
Even if they really just wanted to relocate them, which was a crime itself, they should've done that in a better way then just forcing them out to go hundreds miles in severe conditions without possibility of doing that and without protection from local Kurdish tribes.
Also, still, I remember foreign accounts of Armenian railway workers in Mesopotamia or Syria who disappeared one day, or were just put inside a wagon to die of thirst and heat - and these are not Armenian stories, but of passing Europeans
That doesn't mean that such actions had to be planned by the gouverment itself
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
You can't put an = between Armenian violence and Turkish one. Turks had a state, Armenians did not. Armenians were not an equal partner in this confrontation
Also, the final result shows, which one was more hurt.
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Actually, there appears to me a lot of converge of opion on the issue, although our conclusions yet differ.
I'm not saying they were equal and that they had a state. Of course they did not.
quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
But it proves Turkey was a bit mad about national affairs, doesn't it... |
My main contention is that Armenians brought on the relocation onto themselves. I'm not saying they deserved such an end, but I'm not saying that the government suddenly acted on nationalist impulses. Actually, in the Ottoman times there was a region Kurdistan by name, Kurds were not considered as Turks at all. Your example while has some truth in and by itself detracts from the Armenian issue.
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You mean, what they are to be blamed?
First of all, lack of realism. Secondly, rushness or how to call that;
until they were sure Russians would take Armenia, they should've acted completely calm, all of them, no matter what.
If they just got through the reign of that Comitee of (don't know English words, Progress and something), they would have been fine probably, and today they might have an autonomy or independance on part of those lands. Turkish actions can't be pardoned, though.
Even if they really just wanted to relocate them, which was a crime itself, they should've done that in a better way then just forcing them out to go hundreds miles in severe conditions without possibility of doing that and without protection from local Kurdish tribes.
Also, still, I remember foreign accounts of Armenian railway workers in Mesopotamia or Syria who disappeared one day, or were just put inside a wagon to die of thirst and heat - and these are not Armenian stories, but of passing Europeans
That doesn't mean that such actions had to be planned by the gouverment itself |
I agree with your analysis of their tactical mistake they made.
Everything you say here in fact quite detracts from what Armenian activists are trying to push through. They insist on the intention and put the Ottoman Turkey of 1915 on the same league with Nazi Germany. What you're doing now is a more constructive approach in fact, because once I accept that Armenian sufferings were as a result of neglicence and lack of better planning once the decision to relocate is made, the issue of "genocide" is largely settled. Once the nature and reason of their suffering is such established, quoting the death of people from thirst and heat on the road assumes a different character than as proofs of genocide.
You say such actions need not to be planned by the state, which is correct, but then if it's not planned by the government, and if it's not intended as such, then that's a whole lot of different ball game than genocide. If you would still insist the government indeed deliberately planned a genocide to take place through neglicence on the road, then the case remains that there's absolutely no proof whatsoever of such a scheme, in the absence of such evidence, it would be induction rather than deduction.
quote:
I went succesfully through Turkology studies entrance exam after all... |
Wow You're the first person I met who showed some interest in Turkology
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ancyrean
My main contention is that Armenians brought on the relocation onto themselves. I'm not saying they deserved such an end, but I'm not saying that the government suddenly acted on nationalist impulses.
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I think we agree, though there's a slight difference of accents. I think Turkish gouverment panicked and took unappropriate measures that resulted in a horrible tragedy. I do not think it intended to just kill Armenians, but certainly it didn't care much if they did die or not.
But I still think Armenia would not exist at all if it was up to this gouverment, if it captured Erewan. Not because they hated Armenia, but because they wanted a Pan-Turk state, and Armenia is placed between Turkey and Azerbeydzan.
quote:
Everything you say here in fact quite detracts from what Armenian activists are trying to push through. They insist on the intention and put the Ottoman Turkey of 1915 on the same league with Nazi Germany.
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Well, they've lost their families, their property, their homeland, and of dream of Greater Armenia crumbled to the size of the smallest probably Soviet Republic that even didn't get its finest capital's ruins and holy mountain that's just on the other side of the river to their capitol. C-mon. That's cruel.
Armenia had bad luck. Consider Byelorus. They even didn't know they are Byelorussians. Bah, most of them didn't get to know that up to today. And this state never existed - and except for Smolensk and Bielsk Podlaski, it got everything it could ever dream of. The same to Slovakia... and other countries.
quote:
You say such actions need not to be planned by the state, which is correct, but then if it's not planned by the government, and if it's not intended as such, then that's a whole lot of different ball game than genocide. If you would still insist the government indeed deliberately planned a genocide to take place through neglicence on the road, then the case remains that there's absolutely no proof whatsoever of such a scheme, in the absence of such evidence, it would be induction rather than deduction.
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I say that it probably wasn't a genocide, according to a definition that a genocide has the goal of destroying entire nation; according to that definition, there was just one genocide, by Hitler.
I do not know if there's an evidence. I've heard about Talat letters, but I also heard they aren't original. I've read about that German representative sent a message to his gouverment that the Turkish one wants to annihilate Armenians, but it's still just his impression.
People of the west perhaps have seen this act as a (planned) extermination, because it seems it did turn into extermination (probably unplanned) and the gouverment didn't care to stop it.
That's the impression I have today.
Perhaps if I'll discuss it with some Armenian He'll change my mind.
quote:
Wow You're the first person I met who showed some interest in Turkology |
I think it is a good direction, and I have some regrets I've chosen Arabic studies after all. I was definitely more interested in Turkey,
Turkish language came easier for me originally (though I must say Turkish grammar is one of the weardiest things I've ever seen. Even Arabic one is more similar to indo-european ones. Or just I got used to it.), and at least Turkey is something which can be called a modern democratic state, while the Arabs... oh well.
Even the part of Arabic history that I found the most interesting, Mamluk sultanate, it's an Arab state ruled by Turks
Still, my Turkish sucks now. Just like my Arabic. I've spent entire holidays on learning to another exam and have forgotten everything, everything
Hic bir sey unuttum. Ders calismam lazim
Actually, I could stop learning Turkish last year, but I was afraid to pass the exam. I took a mock writing exam, and did suprisingly well (also thanks to that a Turkish friend of a friend of mine helped me in learning), and I think I could pass the writing part, but I am damn afraid of speaking any foreign language, even English.
this can be wrong, but
Derslerimde cok Turkiye(den?) hakkinda konusuyoruz, ama lehce, turkce degil....
I guess You'll figure out what I mean...
But as You see, it's not good.
For example, I never remember, if hakkinda goes without anything, or with -den or something. or if I can say turkce degil in this case or not. What I ment was "Polish, not Turkish".
i feel ashamed, because it's a long time since I started the lessons.
I learned one year (just 2 lessons a week at a university course, which is never really intensive). After this year, I was actually better than I am today. Then there was a year pause, and again a year, but actually up till the last weeks, I didn't learn a THING. The lady tells great stories about Turkey, but we end up talking Polish and sometimes we didn't say a single word in Turkish.
Not that I'd mind. I had the lessons in two days a week I started lessons at 8.00 and Turkish was my last lesson, 18.00-19:30.
I was already tired.
OK, it's too long post already
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20-09-2004 14:00
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