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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
quote:
if you're going to invite countries not in europe into the european union, it ceases to become a european union. therefore, either keep turkey out of the european union, or change the name of the european union to something else. |
Turkey has historically been intertwined with Europe, especially in terms of diplomatic circles. They've formed part of many alliances with European powers in wars dealing with European territory. I'd also argue that the greatest population centers in Turkey are culturally European. Istanbul, for example, can hardly be considered an Asian city in its culture. And most of coastal Turkish cities were considered part of the Greek culture in ancient times. |
Good point, Imran. An additional sidenote here, the economic center of Turkey is Eastern Thrace (Turkey's European territory) and its immediate hinterland, for example with up to 40% of the taxes collected from there.
Besides, if one is so fundamentally concerned about geographical criteria, what about Cyprus, is it in Europe geographically? I guess not 
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VetLegion
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quote:
Originally posted by Ancyrean
In fact, Greece is one of the staunchest supporters of Turkish membership these days. That support actually is the hallmark of the thaw of tensions |
It is certainly paraded as a big change in policy, but in my opinion it is just that the Greeks have realized that there is no use of them opposing Turkey's membership anymore, since there is plenty of opposition in the rest of Europe (including perhaps some EC commissioners as recent examples show, but they may just be in the "bad cop" role).
If push came to shove, I'm pretty sure Greece would pull a De Gaulle on Turkey (he blocked British entry for quite some time).
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On a side note, Turkey will sign the European Constitution along with Bulgaria and Romania (not sure about Croatia). |
I figure that once it is ratified in all EU countries, accepting the Constitution becomes a condition for membership. So, sure, Croatia will eventually accept it too. Or did you mean something else by "sign"? A symbolic thing, like "we participated in the creation of this"? In that case I'd say that Croatia probably didn't.
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On referenda, I'd think nobody will put Turkey's membership to public vote as it was not done for any other member's entry, unless of course Europe decides to make a showcase of double standards  |
There were some referendums about expansion, for example in Ireland (passed from second attempt AFAIR). Since it is quite likely Turkey will be the only candidate at the time of another expansion referendum, it's clear what will the referendum be about.
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I think right now the EU is more not ready for Turkey than Turkey is for the EU. In early october the EU Commission will issue a report on Turkish readiness to start negotiations, and Turkey's readiness is expected to be certified in that report. |
The thing that bothers me (and probably irritates Turkey at the moment) is that almost every issue that EU requests from some candidate country is already allowed as "an exception" for some existing member, or being silently broken by an existing member.
I am quite unhappy for example, with the way EU is *****ing about minority rights in my country (Croatia), while letting Greeks, Latvians (or was it Lithuanians) get away with a lot.
Or *****ing about deficits, privatisations and so on, while Germany and France get away with whatever. Hundreds of examples like that.
I feel that the criteria put in front of perspective candidates are not very strict, and that decisions are made elswhere and that they don't depend on theoretical requirements very heavily. This criteria can mostly be ignored if there is strong political will to admit a country to membership, or can be insisted on forever and made impossible to fullfill if they wish the opposite.
I also know that many important issues can be made to look good on the outside, while underlaying problems remain unsolved.
So, in conclusion, I support Turkey's membership in the EU, but I think zero of bureaucratic statements that claim that she is ready to start the talks, or has successfully solved this issue ot that. Propaganda 
I want EU to put it's full weight into helping Turkey with reforms. I'd much rather see the pressure for these reforms come from within though, but if there's no other way... 
The statistics about economic situation and amount of progressive legislation passed won't impress me. I'd like to stop reading in the papers that cousins have gone to a hospital to kill a raped female, not that the sentence for that is now enlarged.
Btw., in it's best tradition, EU will probably eventually turn a blind eye to some of Turkey's problems. I do support that.
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by VetLegion
quote:
Originally posted by Ancyrean
In fact, Greece is one of the staunchest supporters of Turkish membership these days. That support actually is the hallmark of the thaw of tensions |
It is certainly paraded as a big change in policy, but in my opinion it is just that the Greeks have realized that there is no use of them opposing Turkey's membership anymore, since there is plenty of opposition in the rest of Europe (including perhaps some EC commissioners as recent examples show, but they may just be in the "bad cop" role).
If push came to shove, I'm pretty sure Greece would pull a De Gaulle on Turkey (he blocked British entry for quite some time).
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I would concede there's such a possibility. But the encouraging sign is that many issues that were once taboo are ok now in Greece (and to an extent in Turkey). For example, the very act of negotiating with Turkey about the Aegean sea was thought to be defeatist and almost as an act of betrayal in Greece. "Turks are entitled to nothing and it's the Turks' cunning to force us to sit down at the table to demand 100 and get the 1 they would otherwise not get" would accurately describe the general diplomatic and public approach to that issue. Now, diplomats from the two countries are meeting regularly and had made quite a headway, as the leaks from those involved reveal.
Also, on Cyprus, Greece definitely is not showing the blind and unconditionally devoted support it gived to Greek Cypriots before. They did not, for example, made a hell about how the Greek Cypriots were "right" to reject the UN solution, but gave out a rather muted and almost noninterventionist comment about it. The new attitude also survived a government change in Greece.
So I'm more inclined to believe that Greece is sincere about its new approach to Turkey, and that a psychological threshold is crossed. Of course we can't prove that my assessment of this issue is all accurate, but in all honesty I hope you are wrong on this one
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by VetLegion
quote:
On a side note, Turkey will sign the European Constitution along with Bulgaria and Romania (not sure about Croatia). |
I figure that once it is ratified in all EU countries, accepting the Constitution becomes a condition for membership. So, sure, Croatia will eventually accept it too. Or did you mean something else by "sign"? A symbolic thing, like "we participated in the creation of this"? In that case I'd say that Croatia probably didn't.
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Oh, what I meant was I remember reading from newspapers that Turkey will be signing the EU constitution alongside with other candidates Bulgaria and Romania, simultaneously with the 25 actual members of the union (I guess within a few months). I couldn't remember though, if Croatia is to sign it too. But now that you guys are an official candidate (AFAIK), you should be entitled to sign it
quote:
Originally posted by VetLegion
There were some referendums about expansion, for example in Ireland (passed from second attempt AFAIR). Since it is quite likely Turkey will be the only candidate at the time of another expansion referendum, it's clear what will the referendum be about.
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What I meant was a referandum in each or some of 25 existing members on Turkey's membership. Was there a referandum in the member countries of the EC on Ireland's entry? Or was there referenda in any existing member country on any country's incoming membership? AFAIK there was none?
quote:
Originally posted by VetLegion
The thing that bothers me (and probably irritates Turkey at the moment) is that almost every issue that EU requests from some candidate country is already allowed as "an exception" for some existing member, or being silently broken by an existing member.
I am quite unhappy for example, with the way EU is *****ing about minority rights in my country (Croatia), while letting Greeks, Latvians (or was it Lithuanians) get away with a lot.
Or *****ing about deficits, privatisations and so on, while Germany and France get away with whatever. Hundreds of examples like that.
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Yeah, Europe is not totally consistent on these matters and many Europeans are also embarrassed by this, some people blame it on EU not being democratic enough, some blame it on lack of a more centralised structure, some to too centralised a structure... I don't know what the real reason is, but I still give a  to this.
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by VetLegion
So, in conclusion, I support Turkey's membership in the EU, but I think zero of bureaucratic statements that claim that she is ready to start the talks, or has successfully solved this issue ot that. Propaganda
I want EU to put it's full weight into helping Turkey with reforms. I'd much rather see the pressure for these reforms come from within though, but if there's no other way...
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You might be right about the propoganda, so I guess we'll have to wait for first the Commission's report and then the EU summit in December when they will officially decide on whether to start negotiations or not...
On the pressure for change, I guess most of the change that took place in Turkey was possible due to EU's pressure and the pacifying effect of the prospects of membership...I frankly don't so much believe in politicians when they say they'd have done all the reforms without EU anyway...So the EU already caused so much positive change in Turkey, and for that I give a
quote:
Originally posted by VetLegion
The statistics about economic situation and amount of progressive legislation passed won't impress me. I'd like to stop reading in the papers that cousins have gone to a hospital to kill a raped female, not that the sentence for that is now enlarged.
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Fortunately, honour killings are not so much endemic, but it still happens...They already increased penalties for such killings, but if real change is to come, it can only come slowly, over time...If I can make a rough analogy, think about Spain before its membership and think about it now, it's the rising star of Europe
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:23
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Here's some extra info on what the issue of criminalisation of adultery is presented by the government in Turkey:
Adultery here is defined as to exclude pre-marital sex, but is exclusively about a married person. Accordingly, it's not the person who committed adultery per se that will be prosecuted but rather it will be "adultery that seriously hurts/affects the dignity/standing of the other spouse and their children" that will be the subject of the law. And the law will kick in only when a spouse files an official complaint (meaning, the state will not have the liberty to crack down on adulterous persons).
Much open to wide interpretation as this clause is, it is apparently inspired by widespread prostitution in the eastern Black sea region of Turkey where husbands routinely visit Russian/Ukrainian/Moldovan/etc prostitutes that had been pouring in after the fall of the Soviet Union. Accordingly, many wives who know what's going on are often helpless and humiliated both personally and in society.
A spouse can already file for divorce and demand regular monetary compensation if he/she discovers the infidelity of the spouse, but a legal deterrent with a possible jail sentence in connection with the spouse's complaint would be in better order, the reasoning goes, to beter protect the institution of family. They say this new law "is about protecting women vulnerable as such" and "about changing the legal status quo which often works more in cases of female infidelity than male".
For me, the above logic is way too twisted to hold water . What's ironic is when adultery was decriminalised officially in 1997 (as the law for it was almost never applied), it happened all quietly and nobody ever invoked the integrity of the family and protection of women blah blah against it at all.
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
but now Erdogan stated that this is Turkey, and only Turks have right to decide about themselves |
After all these antics, the EU made quite public warnings as to the incompatibility of criminalisation of adultery with EU values and warned that this would jeopardise the whole membership issue of Turkey. He already took considerable flak at home on the issue and I guess this stern EU reaction was what pissed Erdogan off prompting him to launch himself into the we-decide-for-ourselves outburst.
He's going to Brussels on 22nd to "explain" his government's attitude to EU people and now plays down any talk of a rift with the EU.
I'm quite dismayed by the whole episode which is politically so unwise and so unnecessary, polarising the country and alienating it in the EU. I really wonder if the EU will be able to change his mind on this issue.
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Ancyrean
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Back to Ankara, Turkey
Feb 2003
time: 12:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Heresson
btw, if You're from Indonesia, I've read an article about Indonesia recently. How good does it handle with islamic problems and democracy and stuff... And there were such a nice photos of miss Megawati Sukarnoputri and mister Bambang or whatever... And they have such nice names...
Megawati is like a megavatt... Like a great bulb of light shining through the darkness.... She even reminds a frog a bit! And Bambang... well, like Bambam from Flinstones....
(on the photo, He and his followers were happily raising fists on somekind of meeting, perhaps that's why I got this idea)
I liked it all so much I almost posted a thread about Indonesia....
Tell us something about your country! |
Well, I must admit being a Turk in Indonesia is a unique experience for me. I like the relaxed version of Islam people practice here, and sometimes find it less conservative than some of the practices in Turkey (example: women and men pray within the same room though in seperate groups in mosques here, whereas in Turkey usually there's a seperate room for women).
On a lighter note, my quite fair complexion creates a huge impression when girls here learn I myself am a Muslim  Not that they wouldn't hang out with non-muslims but it certainly draws the attention positively to me since they are not used to see a Muslim buleh (white man) and I surely am not comlplaining about that . And the girls here, I must tell you, are quite relaxed in general
On the other hand, many people here think Turks are the same with Arabs. It comes quite a surprise to many people that we are a different people with a completely different language and history. That's understandable for me, thinking about how much an average person in Turkey knows the difference between peoples of this corner of the world.
However, owing to my Turkish background (or call it bias if you will ) and with my high awareness of (or prejudice for, depending on where you stand) the need for secularity in a Muslim society, I'm quietly worried about the high profile that religion has in public life as well as politics here (as I preceive it). There are large "Islamic Societies" here, for example, with membership numbers running in 60 million or 40 million. These declare largely social and charity agendas. But leaders of such societies for example, freely offered their support to the highest bidders among presidential candidates. How much they are effective in securing the following of their members in voting for a certain candidate is debatable, but it still doesn't inspire me when they go out on sale like that.
Similarly, many solemn ceremonies like opening of the parliament and so on start with a religious ceremony, complete with verses from Quran and colective prayers for succes, people greeting each other as well as audiences with Islamic greetings, which is for my secular sense rather puzzling.
I mean, of course every country is different and of course everybody has its own circumstance and culture and I don't mean to say the system in Turkey should be copied everywhere in the Muslim world, which would be impossible. It's just that I'm sometimes worried that with no institutional principles to draw a line, 20-30 years down the road religion might be a stronger factor in many aspects of politics and social life here than is good for the country.
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