16-09-2004 13:24									#211
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This is my favorite part...

quote: "If the documents are not what we were led to believe, I'd like to break that story," Rather said in an interview last night. "Any time I'm wrong, I want to be right out front and say, 'Folks, this is what went wrong and how it went wrong.' "

The story on the forgeries was broke long ago, Dan, and you sure as hell weren't right out front on it. Feel free to tell us what went wrong and how it went wrong, though.

	16-09-2004 13:50									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten This is my favorite part... quote: "If the documents are not what we were led to believe, I'd like to break that story," Rather said in an interview last night. "Any time I'm wrong, I want to be right out front and say, 'Folks, this is what went wrong and how it went wrong.' " The story on the forgeries was broke long ago, Dan, and you sure as hell weren't right out front on it. Feel free to tell us what went wrong and how it went wrong, though.

No Dan is right. He was out in front of the story, trying with all of his might to push it back into obscurity.

	16-09-2004 16:03									#213
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Dan Rather's Birthday is on Oct-31 so there's still time if you hurry.

	16-09-2004 18:39									#214
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc It's like he's a robot repeating the samething over and over. I think you should kick him to get him out of the loop he's in.

I can accept basic stupidity from Drakie Pooh- thats just his being. But from you, besides no real argumentation, I at least expect some basic common sense.

Who gives a **** about even the original "story"? OHFG! I mean, can we actually believe the son of the head of the CIA might have been given preferential treatment!!!!??? I mean, its a shockingly obvious charge.

What gets me, besides the idiocy of anyone thinking CBS will have to, in the end, do anything more than a minor apology, is the blatant hypocrasy from the right.

Lets see: I loved it when John Stewart called Robert Novak "Douchebag for Liberty"- with that imbecile demanding CBS turn in its sources-and outrage-and outrage. Yet he is part of a felony (revealing the indentity of a covert CIA operative), and yet I don;t see any of the participants in this thread giving a damn a felony was committed

And then, as always, there is the entire WMD in Iraq fiasco. People like Drakie Pooh foam at the mouth if Dan Rather does not question four documents on a worthless story (Bush served in the National Guard and got preferential treatment- shocking!!!) but they are first grade apologists for the admin. in the vastly more important, shocking and consequential WMD screwup.

You speak of partisanship DD_ well, this thread is a prime example of it- everything that is wrong with the media all around, and the stupidity some people (besides Drakie Pooh) will sink to.

	16-09-2004 18:50									#215
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I can accept basic stupidity from Drakie Pooh- thats just his being. But from you, besides no real argumentation, I at least expect some basic common sense.

One more time... DISCUSS THE TOPIC... NOT THE POSTERS.

	16-09-2004 18:52									#216
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quote: People like Drakie Pooh foam at the mouth if Dan Rather does not question four documents on a worthless story

Yeah, it was such a "worthless story" that CBS decided to run it as the top story on their flagship primetime news show...

And the importance of the story has no bearing on the complete failure of CBS to follow basic journalistic standards, or their continuing failure to admit their error after the fact. They used obviously forged documents as part of an attack on the President of the United States and you want us to believe that this isn't an issue worth discussing?

I think you're demonstrating pretty clearly who the stupid one is around here...

	16-09-2004 19:01									#217
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/09/16/p...tner=ALTAVISTA1 Compare and contrast with the Washington Post article I posted earlier. Please.

What? WaPo makes the guy seem like a crank, and NYT interviews people who know him? You have two different views, and you automatically assume one is correct and thee other isn't? Is it possible they're both correct?

	16-09-2004 19:02									#218
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quote: I'd try to update everyone on the situation, but it's just too damn huge now. Rather is ****ing toast...

Um... no.

Even if the documents are fakes, the allegations are pretty much spot on according to Killian's secretary. Presumably CBS had independent reasons to think that what the documents said was true, which is why they pushed them.

I watched 60 Minutes last night and that woman said she thought that these documents were sanitized versions of the originals.

Accuse Rather of being duped by forgeries or whatever you want, but such accusations will ring hollow if what he claimed on the basis of the documents is true - and now Killian's secretary says it is true.

It would be as if people discovered that the WMD intelligence was fake, but WMDs were found anyway. Who would care in that case?

It's quite clear from what has been produced that Bush, for some reason, avoided a medical which presumably included a drug test. We all know he was a cokehead - you do the math.

	16-09-2004 19:03									#219
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I don't believe anybody in this story anymore. They're all lying! Everyone!

	16-09-2004 19:04									#220
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quote: Presumably CBS had independent reasons to think that what the documents said was true, which is why they pushed them.

Yeah, they hate Bush and want to see him out of office.

	16-09-2004 19:12									#221
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OMFG Killian's secretary!!!

If anything deserves to be doubted it is the memory of a secretary that would have proccessed thousands upon thousands of such documents a year.

	16-09-2004 19:20									#222
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Don't be silly, Patroklos. The thirty-five year old memories of eyewitnesses are always un-impeachable pieces of evidence. As long as they're anti-Bush, that is. If they're anti-Kerry, however, then they're obviously lying, all 250 of them...

	16-09-2004 19:24									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten quote: People like Drakie Pooh foam at the mouth if Dan Rather does not question four documents on a worthless story Yeah, it was such a "worthless story" that CBS decided to run it as the top story on their flagship primetime news show...

Yes, it is a worthless story- that it gets top billing means nothing- heck, the Laci Peterson case, or the Jessicae Lynch "story" also get top billing- that a commercially motivated news network runs sensationalist stories means nothing insofar as their actual worth.

quote: And the importance of the story has no bearing on the complete failure of CBS to follow basic journalistic standards, or their continuing failure to admit their error after the fact. They used obviously forged documents as part of an attack on the President of the United States and you want us to believe that this isn't an issue worth discussing?

Wait, you were screaming around about the news networks not devoting hours to charges backed by nothing other that people's sayso when it applied to Kerry..now all of a sudden you are a paragon of media fairness and integrity!? Too funny.

quote: I think you're demonstrating pretty clearly who the stupid one is around here...

Yes, but Ming is on the case, so I won;t say who is demonstrated as the stupid one.

You see, I have said from day one this story (Bush National Guard record) is a NON-story. I don;t give a **** what he did or did not do 30 years ago, or the favors he got being the son of the CIA chief- we already know he has benefited from who he was his whole life- why is that news? What matters is his record in office and his stance on issues. The sad part is, I see you fleeing from issue debates like Rush Limbaugh from a drug test, or Bush from a game of Scrabble.

	16-09-2004 19:36									#224
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quote: Wait, you were screaming around about the news networks not devoting hours to charges backed by nothing other that people's sayso when it applied to Kerry

There's plenty of documentary evidence out there with which to investigate the claims of the SwiftBoat Vets, if only Kerry would open up his military records as Bush has done. The media never pushed for the release of those records, however, even after spending months pressuring Bush to release his. I guess they were too busy acquiring forged documents to attack Bush with to actually apply the same standard of investigation to claims regarding Kerry's record.

Why am I even explaining this to you, though? You don't care about media fairness; you're just a hack, and a poor one at that...

*Drake Tungsten kicks the robot...

	16-09-2004 19:52									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Um... no. Even if the documents are fakes, the allegations are pretty much spot on according to Killian's secretary. Presumably CBS had independent reasons to think that what the documents said was true, which is why they pushed them. I watched 60 Minutes last night and that woman said she thought that these documents were sanitized versions of the originals.

...and we have a commanding officer and a wife who believe they don't. I think that trumps a secretary.

	16-09-2004 19:53									#226
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Does anyone else have the feeling that this campaign is exceeding different from any other modern presidential campaign? Perhaps we have had forgeries in the past, but the Internet has changed everything. The major news networks also seem singularly obsessed with defeating Bush. Other than being liberals, there seems to be some sort of desperation in their all out lying to dethrown the current Republican president. This "anybody but Bush" syndrome is almost insane.

I support anybody but Bush syndrome . But I prefer it be another republican (one who is not so religious and catering to big business- yes they do exist). I can't stand democrats.

	16-09-2004 19:55									#227
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So where's the 60 minutes episode on Kerry's vietnam record? Or the Navy inquiry going on right now? Or what he did after Vientam? But CBS isn't biased or anything...

	16-09-2004 19:58									#228
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quote: It's quite clear from what has been produced that Bush, for some reason, avoided a medical which presumably included a drug test. We all know he was a cokehead - you do the math.

Yeah, he's said he has been drug-free since 1974.

All this happened before 1974, so it's pretty clear he was grounded for substance abuse.

We already know that.

What's the point, again?

	16-09-2004 20:04									#229
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quote: Yes, it is a worthless story- that it gets top billing means nothing- heck, the Laci Peterson case, or the Jessicae Lynch "story" also get top billing- that a commercially motivated news network runs sensationalist stories means nothing insofar as their actual worth.

I agree, GePap, I really do -- but we're not the ones pushing hard on the events of thirty years ago -- Kerry and the DNC are.

	16-09-2004 20:32									#230
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and it's backfiring on them. What amazes me is they haven't figure it out yet. they see the polls- they should know.

concentrate on the issues.

The fact is the democrats are weak on the issues. Which is sad, because I hate to see Bush back in the whitehouse. But the democrats have no answers to our problems.

	16-09-2004 21:12									#231
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten There's plenty of documentary evidence out there with which to investigate the claims of the SwiftBoat Vets, if only Kerry would open up his military records as Bush has done. The media never pushed for the release of those records, however, even after spending months pressuring Bush to release his. I guess they were too busy acquiring forged documents to attack Bush with to actually apply the same standard of investigation to claims regarding Kerry's record.

What, you mean the Washington Times, the Wall Street Journal, The national review, Newscorp Corporation (one of the biggest media companies there is) did not push at all-or that they are not media? You know, the funny thing is, there is this thing called choice- are you tellimg me Fox News is not "the media", not mainstream, and not influential? They have given that story massive coverage. They most certainly must have pushed. NOTHING.

quote: Why am I even explaining this to you, though? You don't care about media fairness; you're just a hack, and a poor one at that... *Drake Tungsten kicks the robot...

Hey Ming, why nothing on this?

	16-09-2004 21:14									#232
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I agree, GePap, I really do -- but we're not the ones pushing hard on the events of thirty years ago -- Kerry and the DNC are.

Right- that is why they have been making those ads- oh, wait, they haven't.

Give me a break. Even if your assertion were true- SO WHAT??? The media must do or react to what the DNC does? Its a meaningless statement you made.

You seems to devote a lot of time to it-why, if you trully believe its a non-issue? non-issues are stuff to ignore.

	16-09-2004 21:28									#233
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quote: Right- that is why they have been making those ads- oh, wait, they haven't.

quote: 'Texans for Truth' ad challenges Bush on Guard service Wed Sep 8, 6:41 AM ET By Mark Memmott, USA TODAY A group called Texans for Truth will release a TV ad today in which a former lieutenant colonel in the Alabama Air National Guard says neither he nor his friends saw George W. Bush when the future president was supposed to be with their unit in 1972. The ad could renew questions about Bush's Vietnam-era service in the National Guard, just as ads by a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth renewed debate over Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry (news - web sites)'s service in Vietnam and his anti-war efforts. Since the 2000 campaign, Bush has been dogged by questions about whether he reported for duty throughout his Guard service. He served as a pilot with the Texas Air National Guard and sought a transfer to Alabama in 1972 so he could work on a political campaign there. But some records that could document his service in Alabama are missing. (Related story: New Bush records released) Texans for Truth is an arm of DriveDemocracy, an Austin-based organization that got its initial funding from the liberal group MoveOn.org. Affiliates of MoveOn.org - MoveOn PAC and MoveOn Voter Fund - have spent about $7 million since March 1 on anti-Bush TV ads. DriveDemocracy is run by Glenn Smith, who managed the unsuccessful 2002 Texas gubernatorial campaign of Democrat Tony Sanchez. Smith is a former managing director at the consulting firm Public Strategies. That firm employs former Texas governor Ann Richards, a Democrat whom Bush beat in 1994. Mark McKinnon, the Bush-Cheney campaign's ad czar, is on leave from the same firm. In the new ad, retired lieutenant colonel Robert Mintz says he "heard George W. Bush get up there and say, 'I served in the 187th Air National Guard in Montgomery, Alabama.' "I said, 'Really? That was my unit. And I don't remember seeing you there,' " Mintz says. "So I called my friends and said, 'Did you know that George Bush (news - web sites) served in our unit?' And everyone said, 'No, I never saw him there.' It would be impossible to be unseen in a unit of that size." Texans for Truth plans to spend $100,000 to $250,000 to run the ad for a week in closely contested states that are home to large numbers of families of U.S. troops killed in Iraq (news - web sites). Such states include Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Oregon and Arizona. But the group would not specify which states it has bought ad time in. The Bush-Cheney campaign is crying foul. Charges that Bush failed to fulfill his Guard duties are "baseless and false," campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt said. "The president served honorably in the National Guard, fulfilled his duties and was honorably discharged." Kerry-Edwards campaign spokesman Chad Clanton said, "We've never heard of this outfit," referring to Texans for Truth.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...honguardservice

And you can bet there would've been a lot more ads on the subject if Rather hadn't ****ed up and inoculated Bush on the issue...

	16-09-2004 21:46									#234
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Since when are "texans for Truth" the DNC? And if you say they are, then Swiuftboiat vets are the RNC, right?

	16-09-2004 22:10									#235
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Kerry claimed the SwiftVets were controlled by Bush. Just applying your candidate's logic to the situation.

	16-09-2004 22:11									#236
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Which means **** to me- is that an admission you have no logic of your own to use?

	16-09-2004 22:13									#237
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quote: is that an admission you have no logic of your own to use?

Yeah, sure it is...

	16-09-2004 22:17									#238
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Then for once, use your own, instead of hiding behind something else. We should call you Potemkin Village. All front, no susbtance.

	16-09-2004 22:19									#239
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US viewers PWN lying Rather and lying CBS:

http://www.drudgereport.com/cbsd3.htm

CBS executives on both coasts have become concerned in recent days that Dan Rather's EVENING NEWS broadcast has plunged in the ratings since the anchor presented questionable documents about Bush's National Guard service.

NIELSEN numbers released this week show Rather fading and trailing his rivals in every Top 10 city, other than San Francisco, with audience margins in some cities running more than 6 to 1 against CBS!

Executives fear many voters inclined to vote for Bush are now switching off Rather.

"The audience appears to [be] polarized," a top CBS source said from LOS ANGELES on Thursday. "Rightly or wrongly, we're being perceived as 'anti-Bush,' which I do not think is fair to Dan, who is a fine journalist... of course we do not like to see the ratings coming back the way they are this week."

In Philadelphia, the nation's #4 market, Rather pulled a 2.6 rating/5 share on Tuesday night against ABC's 13.3 rating/23 share and NBC's 4.0/7.

In Chicago, Rather hit a 2.3/5 to ABC's 9.2/20.

CBS trailed ABC by more than 2 to 1 in Los Angeles.

And in the nation's top market, New York, Rather finished not only behind NBC NIGHTLY NEWS and ABC WORLD NEWS TONIGHT -- but also pulled less audience than reruns of the SIMPSONS, WILL & GRACE and KING OF QUEENS.

Rather finished dead last in New York during the 6:30 pm timeslot among all broadcast channels tracked by NIELSEN on Tuesday.

Developing...

-----------------

Ouch. That is what you get for using false documents. Maybe Rather then the truth will lose his job?

	16-09-2004 22:23									#240
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quote: Then for once, use your own, instead of hiding behind something else. We should call you Potemkin Village. All front, no susbtance.

Typical GePap, always denying the existence or importance of things you can't handle. Rathergate is damaging to your side, so it obviously doesn't matter. Similarly, my logic has pwned you countless times in the past few months, so it obviously doesn't exist...