25-09-2004 10:55									#31
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What I love best about the concept that Harry has come up with for this scenario is the fact that it can be applied to donzens of other scenario's, like a colonization of Mars, the Moon, maybe the colonization of North America.

This will surely make for some great future scenario's.

	25-09-2004 12:10									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle Yeah, I thought it might. I need to get the thesaurus out. How many saloons did you have and where did you place them?

In the settlements, and often they were destroyed through combat.
But, I must say, I love the 'build from scratch' scenarios.

	25-09-2004 17:34									#33
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Harry,

While I have no idea how events work and how they are embedded in the saves (be they .sav or .net) and I don't understand what you mean with the 'flag', I CAN tell you that a PBEM is essentially nothing more than a SP, with the only exeption that everybody uses a different 'human player'.

scenario-makers do tend to release seperate event-files for SP and PBEM though.

Hope this helps.

PS.: The save rotates through the players, there is not really a set of saves. Scenario conditions (like difficulty level, barb activity and so forth, are set by the first player. After that, there is no altering that.

	25-09-2004 18:56									#34
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The problem will definatly persist in PBEMs/MP.
The entire problem is due to the fact that the game will replace the anybody entry with the name of the civ who first triggers it in the events embeded in the savefile.

	25-09-2004 20:49									#35
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Say Harry, I have a question with the whole space ship construction issue. Since its the Train to Chicago that in this case allows Space Ship Construction, are you going to change the SS Structual, SS Component and SS Module into different components of a cross country train to Chicago?

It might make for an interesting race, who can build the first round trip train between Gold Gultch and Chicago.

BTW, which state is Gold Gultch in again?

	26-09-2004 01:36									#36
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

@Sarsstock - Oh yes, there are plenty of ideas out there. Just think, if someone were to create red canyons like on Mars, that are on caliber with Favoured Flights mountains, then we could battle it out for the resources of Mars. There are some very cool ideas. Oh yeah, on another note, I've also worked up some really cool graphics for a beachhead assault scenario too. Muhahaha!

As for the spaceship parts I was thinking of something exactly on those lines. I just have to make the icons. I could conceivably borrow the DLL graphics from one of the many train games out there.

And the Black Hills Territory, including Gold Gulch (which is a fictional name) is now located in South Dakota. The famous town of Deadwood is located there, famous for its gold strike, it's proceeding lead mines, it's unlawful history, and the site of Wild Bill Hickock's last poker game. And what was the name of the hand he held when he died? Anyone? "The Dead Man's Hand"

@Germanos, Henrik - Hmmmm, well if the problem persists because of embedded events, then it would really be no problem to have the events un-embedded each autosave... I have to look at Merc's CivSwap readme a bit closer and do some testing but I think there is hope! Thanks for responding!

	28-09-2004 14:54									#37
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Harry, this is just amazing!

You managed to create a scenario which is at the same time fully different from any other CivII game (concepts, mecanics, graphics, ...) and fairly typical for an excellent CivII scen (the "one more turn syndrom" in full power...)!

And now for a few comments:
- the graphics are beautiful! the screen is really a pleasure to look at, and all the units and terrains go together well!
- the game is pleasing to play: even if you have to build your empire from scratch (or nearly), you have plenty to do from the beginnign on! and the things you can do are interesting and varied!
- from what I saw, the tech tree and the improvement structures have been really well thought out!
- fully subjective: I really like it!!

Now a few "playtester" comments:

- in the "introduction" test, don't forget to change the XXX for the names of US Cavalry General and for the US President!

- in the first turn, I use my "lady in waiting" to bribe her closest colleague, who in turn bribed the next, and so on: I then controlled the 5 ladies, and the other saloons had none! While I think being able to bribe the other w*ores is a good opportunity, I really believe you should spread ( ) them apart at the start to avoid that the first to move can buy them all!

- I then used my ladies to bribe all the pioneers who appeared, as well as all the US cavalrymen in the valley, and even a gunboat! The pioneers are really expensive and, if I used them as intended (i.e. disbanding them in a saloon), not worth their money! Is there another way of using them??
The US cavalry are not expensive, and powerful! So I wonder if it's allowed to bribe them? And if yes, if it's a good idea... Maybe making their civ a Democracy would prevent that (ok, it might generate other problems...), or maybe they are barbarians (forgot to check yesterday...)??

- I noticed that the animals are not really aggressive against my prospectors (not that I complain...), and that even if the prospectors should die, their construction cost is incredibly low (maybe too low?)

- I played for a few hours, and settled all the "developped" plot on the southern shore (haven't seen any concurrence there); I'll soon start attacking the other saloons on the northern shore with my currently regrouping bribed US cavalry

That's all for now, I can't wait till tomorrow when I can play a few more turns!

	28-09-2004 19:48									#38
	Re: Playtesting... Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Cyrion Harry, this is just amazing! You managed to create a scenario which is at the same time fully different from any other CivII game (concepts, mecanics, graphics, ...) and fairly typical for an excellent CivII scen (the "one more turn syndrom" in full power...)!

Thank you. I wanted to make this one as fun and user friendly as possible.

quote: And now for a few comments: - the graphics are beautiful! the screen is really a pleasure to look at, and all the units and terrains go together well! - the game is pleasing to play: even if you have to build your empire from scratch (or nearly), you have plenty to do from the beginnign on! and the things you can do are interesting and varied! - from what I saw, the tech tree and the improvement structures have been really well thought out! - fully subjective: I really like it!!

I wanted to keep the player involved early on so that the game would remain fun. As for the tech tree and improvement mapping I've begun to use a planning technique I started with Atomic Eagle. Everything is mapped out, making it easier to change and avoid mistakes.

quote: Now a few "playtester" comments: - in the "introduction" test, don't forget to change the XXX for the names of US Cavalry General and for the US President!

Will do! I almost forgot about that. The names slipped my mind so I need to do my research.

quote: - in the first turn, I use my "lady in waiting" to bribe her closest colleague, who in turn bribed the next, and so on: I then controlled the 5 ladies, and the other saloons had none! While I think being able to bribe the other w*ores is a good opportunity, I really believe you should spread ( ) them apart at the start to avoid that the first to move can buy them all!

I was thinking of that. The close grouping does give an advantage to the player with the first turn.

quote: - I then used my ladies to bribe all the pioneers who appeared, as well as all the US cavalrymen in the valley, and even a gunboat! The pioneers are really expensive and, if I used them as intended (i.e. disbanding them in a saloon), not worth their money! Is there another way of using them?? The US cavalry are not expensive, and powerful! So I wonder if it's allowed to bribe them? And if yes, if it's a good idea... Maybe making their civ a Democracy would prevent that (ok, it might generate other problems...), or maybe they are barbarians (forgot to check yesterday...)??

The Pioneers will have to be adjusted so that the trade off is a bit more justifiable. I remember cost equaling the shield bonus from disbandment, so I'll have to check. Also, the Pioneers have an incredibly high rate of movement to facilitate disbandment, so maybe I'll try something different, like making airfields that look like small tent camps where the pioneers can paradrop from. You could use them as scouts, but that would not really be their purpose.

The US Cav are tough, but bribable, owing to the fact that they were the predominant force in the Black Hills and their morale wasn't so hot. I might make them appear away from the prostitutes so that you can't just step two squares and bribe a unit. Also, they should be a big roadblack for your units later in the game, so I'll try to get them to attack more. Or maybe I'll make them really expensive so that you can't just bribe them all, but maybe one or two. And yes, the Cav are Barbs.

quote: - I noticed that the animals are not really aggressive against my prospectors (not that I complain...), and that even if the prospectors should die, their construction cost is incredibly low (maybe too low?)

Good point. I'll make some changes.

	29-09-2004 16:55									#39
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This is one of the best scenarios around!

The amount of work that has been put into it is staggering.

One minor point.
I think the player's own unit should be an actual person.
It would create more of a link with the player, and entice you to protect him!

Otherwise, I love the design - New ideas like this are the future of our CIV2 community!

PS
Love the 'hooker race' that breaks out near the start!

	29-09-2004 17:35									#40
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling This is one of the best scenarios around! The amount of work that has been put into it is staggering.

Fully agree!

quote: One minor point. I think the player's own unit should be an actual person. It would create more of a link with the player, and entice you to protect him!

I would like it too, even if I don't mind the actual unit design too much, it just doesn't feel like an unit.

quote: PS Love the 'hooker race' that breaks out near the start!

Do you mean you like them the way they are, or that you agree that they should be further apart from each other? as they are now, there is no race: the first one to move can bribe all the others!

	29-09-2004 17:53									#41
	Full PM-box? Change here!

In my game:

The hookers all seem to move after each other from the valley they start in!

I'ts like a mad race!

	30-09-2004 03:44									#42
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quote: Originally posted by curtsibling One minor point. I think the player's own unit should be an actual person. It would create more of a link with the player, and entice you to protect him!

This is planned, Fairline was/is going to do the graphics for them, but he's been a bit busy lately. For the release I plan to have them be actual people. Wouldn't let you guys off with just a cop out shield.

As for the hookers, I will be setting them a little farther apart at least so they can't be bribed on the first turn so as to give the players a chance to maneuver. The scenario is best played with other human players, of course, so bribing my be a bit harder with someone real on the other end moving their units.

I'll try to post an update later tonight or tomorrow night. I just got back from recruiting some interns so I am a bit worn out.

	30-09-2004 13:58									#43
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Looking forward to it!

	30-09-2004 15:10									#44
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I must congratulate Harry on making such a fine scenario. It's a releive to see such a new and inventive way to use civ2

My first glimpse at the scen makes me share the remarks made on the closeness of the hookers, and the discrepency between the bribe-cost of the pioneers and their 'disband-value'.
The hookers are too cheap to bribe, and thus the first player has a huge advantage over the others.
As things stand now, there really is little incentive to bribe the pioneers, as there will be too little reward for them.

quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle The scenario is best played with other human players, of course, so bribing my be a bit harder with someone real on the other end moving their units.

I would certainly like to play this scen in a PBEM, or in MP. Perhaps there are more posters here to join?

	30-09-2004 19:42									#45
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quote: Originally posted by germanos I would certainly like to play this scen in a PBEM, or in MP. Perhaps there are more posters here to join?

Count me in for a PBEM!

An MP game would be even better, but finding a convenient time-frame might prove impossible (at least in the next 2 weeks...), even if we are in the same time zone...

	01-10-2004 08:12									#46
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First off, thank you all for your kind comments. I'm extremely happy that everyone likes the scenario even if it's only a playtest!

Changes as of 11:04 pm EST 9/30/04

The appropriate zip and rules.txt has been updated.

Changes:

1) Hookers have been moved farther apart. This should prevent any pre-emption by the first turn player.

2) Pioneers have been given an extremely low shield cost. This is still disportionate for disbandment, but I'd like to hear any recommendations to a remedy to make the pioneers disband at a higher pay off. I could have the pioneers pop up as civ specific, allowing for a free bonus, with the possibility of bribery from the hookers, but that will require more event space. I'll have to look into this.

3) The saloon owners have been given the maximum shields possible. This should, in theory, cause the storm units to attack the main saloon.

4) The cavalry units, all three kinds, have been given higher shields, making them extremely costly to bribe.

5) The animal units have been given two space visibility. Maybe now they will be able to spot your pioneers.

I am working on the sounds right now because that has piqued my interest at present. I promise plenty of sound bytes from the Duke!

I was thinking of using Civswap to wipe out the events each turn so as to eliminate the ANYBODY event problem. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure it will wipe out the "Have tech -> get unit" events I have worked in for the special celebrity units causing multiple "hero" units to pop up each turn.

I may have to use Civswap to reload events each turn, each with a town terrain square popping up at a turn number, so as to keep the regular events intact and add additional space for a civ specific "postANYBODY" event. Of course the hero units will have to have some other trigger, but that can be worked out. Hell of a way to do things, but I think I may be able to work out a solution.

Do me a favor and add to my draft letter in the Civ2 Source Code Petition thread so we can fix this unusable command once and for all.

Keep the ideas coming! Thanks

	01-10-2004 20:21									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle I was thinking of using Civswap to wipe out the events each turn so as to eliminate the ANYBODY event problem. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure it will wipe out the "Have tech -> get unit" events I have worked in for the special celebrity units causing multiple "hero" units to pop up each turn.

I'm not sure if that's feasible. Letting CivSwap wipe out events each turn would mean people will have to reload every turn (that's the only thing CivSwap can't automate). That's pretty bothersome, I'd say.

Apart from that, actually, I don't think you would even need CivSwap here.

I've looked in the events section of savegames quite a bit (I'm about 25% through, I think). I haven't really looked at this yet, but I am quite sure that the ANYBODY always remains in the savegame. That is, the fact that ANYBODY changes to the first civ that triggered it is only done in Civ2 memory and isn't stored in the savegame.

I think that simply reloading the game (without using delevent on it, so no need for CivSwap) will already do the trick. Still, that comes down to the same thing. People would have to load the autosave every turn.

Hmmm, then again, you might be able to replace all ANYBODY events by 7 different events, for each civ separately. You would need several event files then, to make it all fit, but then you could use CivSwap.

Of course, that is only possible if your events run on fixed turns. If all/most events could be triggered any time, splitting the events files won't help either. Each separate file would still end up being too large, since all those events would need to be in every events file.

	01-10-2004 20:42									#48
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I just verified what I suspected: the Opium Emporium doesn't work!

As the Emporium replaces the Cathedral, it needs the Monotheism (MT) tech to work, and it's pre-requisite is currently Mon (which stands for Monarchy, not Monotheism )

So you need to swap Healthy Endeavors with Dope to get the desired effect!

Note: but maybe you already adressed that in a new rules.txt file? I don't think so, but am not really sure...

	01-10-2004 20:59									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Cyrion I just verified what I suspected: the Opium Emporium doesn't work! As the Emporium replaces the Cathedral, it needs the Monotheism (MT) tech to work, and it's pre-requisite is currently Mon (which stands for Monarchy, not Monotheism ) So you need to swap Healthy Endeavors with Dope to get the desired effect! Note: but maybe you already adressed that in a new rules.txt file? I don't think so, but am not really sure...

Dang it! I already switched it but I mistook "mon" for monotheism. Ok, I'll change it tonight.

	01-10-2004 21:29									#50
	Re: Re: Small bug Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle Dang it! I already switched it but I mistook "mon" for monotheism.

Yeah, that's what I thought, so I wrote the Mon/MT explanation...

	02-10-2004 06:54									#51
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ok, tech fixed, thanks for the head up

also, the cavalry general name and US prez in the gold gulch.txt have been fixed.

Last edited by Harry Tuttle on 02-10-2004 at 06:59

	03-10-2004 23:15									#52
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Here's a thought Harry, with the events engine you've created its possible to recreate..... SID MEIR'S COLONIZATION!!! Which I always considered one of the greatest turn based games ever.

The only thing you wouldn't be able to do is to declare independance in order to win the game.

	04-10-2004 05:57									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Sarsstock Here's a thought Harry, with the events engine you've created its possible to recreate..... SID MEIR'S COLONIZATION!!! Which I always considered one of the greatest turn based games ever. The only thing you wouldn't be able to do is to declare independance in order to win the game.

Spaceship? And as for the events, well, they still need to be fixed. I just have to find a good night to hammer them out. But do tell, what are the similarities?

	04-10-2004 23:04									#54
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Well, here are some similarites I can think of off the top of my head.

Colonization is about the race for resources, plentifull fishing ground, rich timberland, bountifull farmland and most importantly... GOLD. Gold can be represented by a "gold unit" that when discovered will yield great sums of money for its disoverer.

Like in Civ II there are city improvements of course, the biggest difference was that instead of wonders of the world you had the continental congress, which was various individuals throughout history that shaped the exploration of the New World. People like Simon Bolivar, Pochahantas, Jean De Brebeuf, John Paul Jones and so on.

As for dividing up the civ's fairly this would be my idea. Four european civ's, and three native civ's. The european civ's would be England, France, Spain and Holland. The native civ's would be the Iroquois, Aztec and Inuit, with another native tribe being the barbarian civ. Thus, we have a chance to not only be the europeans struggling to build a colonial empire, but also the natives struggling to survive against the european way of life.

	06-10-2004 13:22									#55
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Just downloaded the test - I enjoy the novel idea a lot.

I experienced the same events problem as mentioned though (with the gold - anyone/triggerattacker event), which can be easily solved, however, as mentioned, by making an individual event for each civ.

A couple of questions/comments :

Why can't you hire prostitutes in your saloons? It seems a bit strange to me they start the game in the farthest end of the map.

I suggest upping the move of all units, so that it is possible to 'rush' somewhere faster. Slow units could be kept to wagontrains and other cumbersome units. Fast units would be able to mount and go by horse somewhere pretty fast.

Lowering the cost of some units (especially wagontrains) will make the game pace faster, since they will allow you to spread out and expand more quickly. The settlements seem to spring up disproportionately with the units general move abilities.

I really enjoy the altered diplomatic messages - they're quite funny

	06-10-2004 19:46									#56
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quote: Originally posted by hardjoy A couple of questions/comments : Why can't you hire prostitutes in your saloons? It seems a bit strange to me they start the game in the farthest end of the map.

They are available through research. Look for prostitution on the list.

quote: I suggest upping the move of all units, so that it is possible to 'rush' somewhere faster. Slow units could be kept to wagontrains and other cumbersome units. Fast units would be able to mount and go by horse somewhere pretty fast.

There are mounted units that can be researched. They should show up later in the game. I wanted to keep the pace slow to start out because of the close confines of the camp.

quote: Lowering the cost of some units (especially wagontrains) will make the game pace faster, since they will allow you to spread out and expand more quickly. The settlements seem to spring up disproportionately with the units general move abilities.

Well, the saloons should only be built on or near the town terrain squares. I don't want people building conclaves up in the hills away from the "people" traffic. I wanted to make settling a saloon something you could only do after accumulating a lot of cash - which should be accomplished by exploring for gold, rustling cattle, and disbanding pioneers.

quote: I really enjoy the altered diplomatic messages - they're quite funny

Thanks! I wanted to make them as blatantly western as I could.

	06-10-2004 21:13									#57
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I've only seen new settlement on the east side of the river sprout only once in like 300 turns, while you have like ten events for that...
I didn't look if thay had different coordinates. Perhaps you could adjust that to make the scen more dynamic.

	06-10-2004 22:03									#58
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Really? Only a few times? Hmmmm, I'll have to see what's up. I've seen the majority of the east side settlement pop up in only 50 turns or so. I'll check tonight.

	07-10-2004 00:51									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle I wanted to keep the pace slow to start out because of the close confines of the camp. Well, the saloons should only be built on or near the town terrain squares. I don't want people building conclaves up in the hills away from the "people" traffic. I wanted to make settling a saloon something you could only do after accumulating a lot of cash - which should be accomplished by exploring for gold, rustling cattle, and disbanding pioneers.

It works well that way - I was quickly looking for ways to get cash to outgrow my competition - But I was a bit frustrated when I found out my boxers and railmen couldn't get to my new saloons fast enough to rally up opposition, when they were approached by my rivals.

It is quite easy to fix the events, btw. It just means you have to make 5 events for each one *ANYONE/TRIGGERATTACKER* event (one for each saloon respectively). The triggerattacker flag works only for the first civ to trigger it, so they work well with the JUSTONCE flag - otherwise they won't work as intended with MGE.

This has the benefit, however, that it enables you to personalize the events-text for each saloon triggering the gold-event (and the other triggerattacker events I noticed).

Looking forward to the next update :-)

	07-10-2004 00:56									#60
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quote: Originally posted by hardjoy It is quite easy to fix the events, btw. It just means you have to make 5 events for each one *ANYONE/TRIGGERATTACKER* event (one for each saloon respectively). The triggerattacker flag works only for the first civ to trigger it, so they work well with the JUSTONCE flag - otherwise they won't work as intended with MGE. This has the benefit, however, that it enables you to personalize the events-text for each saloon triggering the gold-event (and the other triggerattacker events I noticed).

I know, I know, I need to fix it. Though, from the previous posts in this thread you can see how much of a pain it will be, especially since the saloon terrain creation events take up so much space in the events.txt. I'll have to produce multiple event files to get the ANYBODY events to work.