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Cyrion
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Caught somewhere in time
Jan 2002
time: 06:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
Yeah, I think you guys are right. I think the laborers might need to come earlier so as to not give any one player an advantage too early in the game, even if it is MP.
@ Arthedain: As for the thunderstorms, you say they are occupying your cities? Hmmm, I better turn them back to air units. At least I knwo they're attacking now!  |
I played yesterday (and my night was too short thereafter, thank you!   ), and I noticed the same things:
1) The AI doesn't build new saloons (having bribed the 3 other whores might play a role in that...  ); anyway, I'm nearly sure the AI wouldn't bribe the pioneers as they are VERY expensive!
2) Needing to bribe the pioneers to expand is IMHO really excellent! And as they are expensive, it makes your prospectors even more valuable! But I agree something should be done to help the poor AI... I'll suggest something at the end of the post! 
3) The Storms and Animals are MUCH more agressive than in the earlier version, which is excellent!  Now I have to be cautious with my prospectors...
4) Playing at "Deity" instead of "Prince", and not having the "riverside" saloon proves much more difficult than my last game! Now all the others have ganged up against me, and prove a worthy challenge!
5) The US Cavalry, which was before dirt cheap to bribe, is now awfully expensive: I like it!
Conclusion: the last version was really good, the current one is just brilliant! 
Now, I would like to keep the necessity to bribe pioneers for the human player (i.e. not hurrying the apparition of Laborers), so here is an idea:
- you said you now have some spare space in the events file, so let's use that
- there are "Human" and "Computer" triggers that could be used for that purpose, I'll have to check tonight if it can be used in the way I intend! Not sure though...
- the idea is to create a "no, no" tech that would be the prerequisite for the pioneer and that would be given to each civ at a definite time, but only if the civ is "Computer"! Now, I'm not sure this trigger can be used for that! This is what I'll check tonight, and if not try to find a way around the problem!
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AGRICOLA
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Canadian bush & Florida
Feb 2003
time: 00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
As for the Cavalry, yes, you should be able to bribe them as they had low morale during the Sioux wars. This can be a big advantage in SP games of course, but not so big in MP games. The scenario is best played as MP, but I hope to make it worthwhile wo play it SP.
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I didn't say it very well, but I was also thinking of the other two types of US units as well as the legendary but historical western characters in your list of units in RULES. It will be difficult for AI saloons to acquire them but they do add much 'flavor' to the scenario.
@Cyrion
Check Kobra's 'The Norwegian Campaign' thread. It has explicit info on how to change a couple of bytes in a saved game so that there is no terrain change when global warming occurs. I hope that you will only have to backtrack to one or two saves before your warming occurred. Many thanks for the heads up, I'm going to fix my game immediately.
EDIT: Sorry, couldn't get table to work. Please see my next post.
Last edited by AGRICOLA on 22-10-2004 at 02:30
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AGRICOLA
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Canadian bush & Florida
Feb 2003
time: 00:16
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The following changes prevented terrain change when global warming took place. The turn 24 game save was changed. Warming occurred around turn 35 but there were no terrain changes.
43 49 56 49 4c 49 5a 45 00 1a 2c 00 3f 80 60 50
00 00 07 00 80 00 00 07 02 00 00 00 18 00 18 00
ff ff ff ff 82 05 00 01 01 01 ff 00 05 00 ff 02
ff 06 80 80 00 00 00 00 00 00 9b 05 0e 00 52 00
Last edited by AGRICOLA on 22-10-2004 at 06:08
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AGRICOLA
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Canadian bush & Florida
Feb 2003
time: 00:16
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Yes, the changes work. The bytes in red were changed to 80 in your save. It took a bit of time to test it. Global warming occurred 12AM Day10 but there were no terrain changes.
Here's the altered file
 Attachment: fra1fixed.sav
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).
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AGRICOLA
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Canadian bush & Florida
Feb 2003
time: 00:16
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@Harry Tuttle
Here are a few minor items for your attention.
1. Golden Nugget Saloon has 2 funny and completely useless techs at start - Industrialization and Seargander Cunning. These must slow down Golden Nugget research.
2. AI saloons research Gunfire Cover and Rifle Posts. Both are techs that do nothing and lead to nothing.
3. In Cyrion's game, the AI operated Blue Moon Saloon seems to have acquired an 'impassable' as a unit. I only mention this because it might be an indicator of a problem of some sort.
4. Would the ranchers in the corral look better if they were on horseback? They do move fast and no self-respecting rancher should be made to chase rustlers on foot.
5. Now for the messy part. I've noticed that all three types of freshly spawned US units (Infantry, Cav Mounted and Cav Officer) either tend to promptly kill themselves by attacking the nearest mountain or just vanish within two or three turns. I think that I’m correct in thinking that they are equivalent to barbarians in vanilla Civ2. From your comments I would have thought that they are supposed to stay around and continue to be a problem for the saloons.
As it stands, they are spawned so far from Gold Gulch that they pose no threat to the town and are a threat only to other units in the immediate vicinity of ~(4,46) and ~(131,87). This means that only whores who are waiting to bribe them or to bribe Pioneers are at risk.
From what I can tell, their life expectancy is no more than 3 turns, even after I had cheated a barb saloon into existence. I tried spawning them away from mountains so they couldn’t commit suicide but they were all gone within 2 or 3 turns. Also, on the basis of limited testing, if N barb units are created by events during a turn, N-1 units actually appear in some cases. This happens regularly near (4,46) at the beginning of turn 20.
The only positive result I got was when they were spawned within <5 squares of Gold Gulch. Then at least some headed into town and attacked the nearest saloon.
If you want them to be a genuine problem, it may be necessary to change them to Sioux or Nature units and arrange it so that the Sioux or Nature are implacably hostile to all saloons
6. What is a 'Hoople Head"?
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Harry Tuttle
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of the Hoople Heads
Mar 2003
time: 00:16
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1. Golden Nugget Saloon has 2 funny and completely useless techs at start - Industrialization and Seargander Cunning. These must slow down Golden Nugget research.
- Industrialization allows for the Golden Nugget to have the Golden Nugget style saloon graphic. In the regular game Industrialization would change a civ's cities to the "red brick" industrialized graphic. The Nugget needs to have this or they would not have the special yellow roofed saloon style.
-Seargander Cunning, I think I remember this right, should be a pre-req to another Golden Nugget specific tech that allows for one of the wonders to be built, I believe something to do with spying. I'll have to check on my home computer before I can get a definate for you.
2. AI saloons research Gunfire Cover and Rifle Posts. Both are techs that do nothing and lead to nothing.
- Not necessarily. I believe these techs allow you to build fortresses.
3. In Cyrion's game, the AI operated Blue Moon Saloon seems to have acquired an 'impassable' as a unit. I only mention this because it might be an indicator of a problem of some sort.
- I'll try and find out where it is on the map tonight. It's a hold over from when I was screwing with the corral. It's probably under a Nature unit.
4. Would the ranchers in the corral look better if they were on horseback? They do move fast and no self-respecting rancher should be made to chase rustlers on foot.
- Wellllllll, yeah, they probably would look better, but I think I'll finish the saloon owners first before I start tweaking the other units.
5. Now for the messy part. I've noticed that all three types of freshly spawned US units (Infantry, Cav Mounted and Cav Officer) either tend to promptly kill themselves by attacking the nearest mountain or just vanish within two or three turns. I think that I’m correct in thinking that they are equivalent to barbarians in vanilla Civ2. From your comments I would have thought that they are supposed to stay around and continue to be a problem for the saloons.
As it stands, they are spawned so far from Gold Gulch that they pose no threat to the town and are a threat only to other units in the immediate vicinity of ~(4,46) and ~(131,87). This means that only whores who are waiting to bribe them or to bribe Pioneers are at risk.
From what I can tell, their life expectancy is no more than 3 turns, even after I had cheated a barb saloon into existence. I tried spawning them away from mountains so they couldn’t commit suicide but they were all gone within 2 or 3 turns. Also, on the basis of limited testing, if N barb units are created by events during a turn, N-1 units actually appear in some cases. This happens regularly near (4,46) at the beginning of turn 20.
The only positive result I got was when they were spawned within <5 squares of Gold Gulch. Then at least some headed into town and attacked the nearest saloon.
If you want them to be a genuine problem, it may be necessary to change them to Sioux or Nature units and arrange it so that the Sioux or Nature are implacably hostile to all saloons
- How expensive are they? I don't necessarily want them invading town all the time. I guess I could just change them over to Sioux and say to hell with the titles. That way they'd stick around. Remember though, they will pop up every so often. As you and the rest of the civs venture out there will be more of a chance that the cavalry will attack your units. I think I will have them pop up on another part of the map. To many people are bribing them early on.
6. What is a 'Hoople Head"?
- I have no idea whatsoever. Al Swearanger on the HBO series "Deadwood" uses the term all the time. It basically equates to idiot, I think. I dunno, it's fun to say. 
@Smiley: The T-storms have been changed to air units with 2 range, just like bombers, so they should not occupy cities. This will be changed in the next upload. Hopefully they'll still attack.
As for bribing the T-storms... Well, if I change them to Nature, they attack, and a war is started with nature, then the mountains on the map will become hostile to you. Moving through the hills would take forever and you would probably lose a good amount of units to missteps. I could change them to "destroyed upon attacking", make them 1 range units which will disappear if they don't hit anything. That way there wouldn't really be a chance for anyone to bribe them. But the big question is, will they attack or just sit there... More testing tonight.
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AGRICOLA
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Canadian bush & Florida
Feb 2003
time: 00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
How expensive are they? |
The cost of bribing a US unit (barbarian) appears to remain constant at $2029. I get the same number at turns 10,20 and 30 in my game and turn 100 in Cyrion's game.
The corresponding figures for bribing a Pioneer are $3540, $2823, $2508 and $7212.
quote:
Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
I don't necessarily want them invading town all the time. I guess I could just change them over to Sioux and say to hell with the titles. That way they'd stick around. Remember though, they will pop up every so often. As you and the rest of the civs venture out there will be more of a chance that the cavalry will attack your units. |
If they continue to be spawned at the present locations, they may not be that much of a problem.
The ones in the SE corner of the map will take a very long time to reach Gold Gulch, most will probably wander off to where they are a threat only to prospectors. Meanwhile, they remain at risk of being bribed.
The events for spawning US units are in the following sequence:
1. Infantry
2. Cav Mounted
3. Cav Officer
4. Infantry
5. Cav Mounted
6. Cav Officer
1 - 3 are spawned west of town, 4 - 6 in SW corner.
There is an interesting problem with those that spawn west of town. The third unit in the sequence, US Cav Officer, is never spawned. There is nothing wrong with EVENTS.
When I interchanged the positions of 2 and 3, the Cav Mounted in position 3 did not spawn.
When the sequence in the EVENTS file was changed to
4. Infantry
5. Cav Mounted
6. Cav Officer
1. Infantry
2. Cav Mounted
3. Cav Officer
then 6. Cav Officer was not spawned.
Never did figure out what was going on except that barbarian units may be given the number of turns they will live at the time they are created, and the third unit created is assigned 0.
In any event, only 2 units are spawned every 20 turns west of town. They will not pose much of a problem. There are enough defenders to overwhelm them.
quote:
Originally posted by Harry Tuttle
I think I will have them pop up on another part of the map. To many people are bribing them early on.
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There really aren't that many around. At turn 30, I have a Cav Mounted and at turn ~100, Cyrion has a Cav Mounted and an Inf. Before changing anything, perhaps we should see how bad they really are.
I'm going to change Events so that they are spawned as Sioux units to see what will happen.
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Harry Tuttle
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of the Hoople Heads
Mar 2003
time: 00:16
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Ok, I think I got it this time:
bribe amount = x((a*z*y)+41)
-> if Sioux Treasury less than or equal to $30,000 then:
bribe amount = x((a*z*y)+41)
-> if Sioux Treasury greater than $30,000 then:
bribe amount = $1708
x = unit cost
y = settler flag (y=1 when unit not settler, y=2 if unit settler)
z = 13.89159
b = Sioux treasury
a = b/500
Now this is just for the Sioux. I tried it on a 5 star whore and I got different numbers. I think tech might have something to do with it. Maybe the number of cities...
 Attachment: bribe schedule.xls
This has been downloaded 0 time(s).
Last edited by Harry Tuttle on 23-10-2004 at 07:18
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Apolyton Time is 00:16. |
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21-10-2004 19:01
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