23-10-2004 08:00									#151
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Ok, Beta 3 Upload.

Changes:

1) Fierce Storms have been given to Nature. Attack downgraded (They killed off one of my saloon owners on the first turn, very random). Also, they have the "killed on attack" flag and 1 range, meaning they are basically missiles. Having them stick around might be a bit of overkill.

2) Saloon owner units have been gievn the x2 Aegis flag and have had their attack upped to 2 from 0.

3) Nature is now at war with all saloons

4) Nature is a Democracy

5) Mountains and Waterfall have been made 0 movement bombers (2 range). Now ground units cannot attack them, even under a state of war.

6) Gunfire Cover and Rifle Posts have been switched on the tech tree. Gunfore cover allows the player to build fortresses (Gun Nests)

7) Wagon Trains have been given the prereq of Prostitution allowing for a stunted start to saloon building at the beginning, making you rely on bribing pioneers.

8) The US Cavalry that is supposed to pop up in the Eastern corridor has been moved father west, delaying any attempts to bribe them early on. Also, they have been given to the Sioux. @Agricola - tell me what you think

9) Graphic update and switch of the Lumber Yard and the Miners camp - Underlying terrain graphic was interfering with the bonus terrain overlayed.

10) As was mentioned, the events have been trimmed down and terrain east of the river has been made into a town.

11) Nature is a Democracy but the Sioux are a dictatorship

12) Sioux Nation is now obsolete with Saloon tech.

13) Probably more, but I can't remember them

Updated Zip at the start of this thread....

Last edited by Harry Tuttle on 23-10-2004 at 08:09

	23-10-2004 08:07									#152
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quote: Originally posted by N35t0r IIRC, distance from capital does affect brbe cost, but only from 1-15 tiles away from the capital. (further away is the same as the 15th tile). It was long ago and my memory could be failing me, though.

I know that's with bribing cities... I tried placing a Sioux Pioneer closer to the Sioux cities and the bribe amount was exactly the same as in the Eastern corridor. So I don't think the units are affected by capital distance, but I may be wrong, I didn't check for specific distance.

In my formula for the Pioneer The value of "z" keeps moving in between 13.8 to 14, depending on unit cost and Sioux Treasury. There has got to be some other factor in there affecting the formula. I betcha it has to do with techs acquired. Also, since I only did the test on the first turn of the game, maybe turns elapsed also has something to do with it. Never the less, at least for the Sioux Pioneer, I think I've nailed the formula within a $20 margin of error.

	23-10-2004 08:19									#153
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Update

I'm continuing my game with the following changes
- laborers can be built by all saloons
- US units are now spawned as non-vet Sioux in the west and vet Sioux in the SE.
- Sioux now have Sole Proprietor government
-to level the playing field, I will continue to build saloons only with bribed units.

- The Sioux treasury has $3051 and bribe costs are
Pioneers – 2532
US units – 10,444 (I believe, as a consequence of unit cost = 990 shlds; cost might be reduced to a more reasonable 300 - 400 shlds )
Sioux Riders – definitely recommended as a BEST BUY at a mere $949 for a unit that can both fight and move like a bat out of hell.

I’ve done a bit of testing. Spawning US units as Sioux might work. The ones from the southeast do move west but will require at least 50 turns to reach Gold Gulch. The ones spawned west of town also move towards Gold Gulch, but when they try to attack a saloon, they lose. I’ve reduced them to non-vet in order to make it a bit easier on the defenders.

As a curiosity, when the events creating the three units west of town were changed so that the US units were created as Sioux, all three units appeared. Therefore, the systematic absence of unit 3 in mentioned in my previous post definitely appears to be caused by spawning the units as barbarians.

EDIT: Cross post

@Harry Tuttle
I will download your latest and start again, playing it without any of my changes. In my humble opinion, you have worked wonders in altering so much in such a short time.

	23-10-2004 08:29									#154
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quote: Originally posted by AGRICOLA Update I'm continuing my game with the following changes - laborers can be built by all saloons - US units are now spawned as non-vet Sioux in the west and vet Sioux in the SE. - Sioux now have Sole Proprietor government -to level the playing field, I will continue to build saloons only with bribed units. - The Sioux treasury has $3051 and bribe costs are Pioneers – 2532 US units – 10,444 (I believe, as a consequence of unit cost = 990 shlds; cost might be reduced to a more reasonable 300 - 400 shlds ) Sioux Riders – definitely recommended as a BEST BUY at a mere $949 for a unit that can both fight and move like a bat out of hell. I’ve done a bit of testing. Spawning US units as Sioux might work. The ones from the southeast do move west but will require at least 50 turns to reach Gold Gulch. The ones spawned west of town also move towards Gold Gulch, but when they try to attack a saloon, they lose. I’ve reduced them to non-vet in order to make it a bit easier on the defenders. As a curiosity, when the events creating the three units west of town were changed so that the US units were created as Sioux, all three units appeared. Therefore, the systematic absence of unit 3 in mentioned in my previous post definitely appears to be caused by spawning the units as barbarians. @Harry Tuttle I will download your latest and start again. In my humble opinion, you have worked wonders in changing so much in such a short time.

Cool, DL the latest. I think you're right on the cavalry units. I did notice that they didn't all appear in threes, but I didn't think much of it.

I just inputted your numbers for the pioneers. The newest formula computed the bribe cost within $6 with the pioneers costing 12 as was the norm before.

And thank you. I spend my time working, working on my new addition to the house, and working on this scenario. I try to keep the changes coming as best I can and I'd just like to thank you and all the other playtesters. I could not have made this scenario better without everyones help. It it much appreciated. Now, for my next task, I think I should find a girlfriend.

	23-10-2004 09:05									#155
	Increase Your PM Length

One minor nitpick:

The saloon size tags overlay the 'star' badge that represents city walls in some cases. Off the top of my head, i can only remember size 8 blue civ's saloons having this problem

	24-10-2004 23:27									#156
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The following list of comments, observations, nitpicks and suggestions is in no particular order. I just took them from my weekly operational summary and edited them slightly. (Note: 1 week = 1 turn)

1. Change width of @REPORTFOREIGN in the GAME file from 580 to 780. This lets players with 17” or larger screens see the entire descripion of each saloon. I don’t think that such a change will hurt anyone playing with a laptops or a smaller screen.

2. Why does Double Diamond start with 2 Prospectors? All other saloons have only one. That is a considerable advantage for Double Diamond.

3. Change name of Gunboat to US Gunboat for consistency. Also, FYI, a Gunboat has been killing Double Diamond Irish Boxers for the last 6 turns (and still counting) and only now is showing a red health bar. Obviously not a unit to be treated lightly.

4. The following event may be boosting bribe costs a bit too much.

@IF
RANDOMTURN
denominator=5
@THEN
CHANGEMONEY
receiver=Sioux Nation
amount=1000
@ENDIF

Week 22 a Pioneer cost $3420 to bribe (Sioux treasury = $4393) but by week 32 the price had increased to $4380 (Sioux treasury = $5822).

There seems to be a weekly decrease of $30-70 in the Sioux treasury (rush buying?) while the event adds ~ $333 per week (I'm assuming that denominator=5 means that, on the average, the event will occur every 3 weeks). This may be a bit too much. Week 32, the amounts in the various treasuries were:

Blue Moon – 5817
Golden Nugget – 0
Double Diamond – 3722
5 Star – 1791
Royale Inn - 1651

None of the AI saloons can bribe a Pioneer. I suspect that if Double Diamond had not started out with 2 Prospector, it also would have less than $2000.


Consequently, week 35 I made the following changes to EVENTS:

@IF
RANDOMTURN
denominator=5
@THEN
CHANGEMONEY
receiver=Sioux Nation
amount=300
@ENDIF

I also changed the Sioux treasury from $7521 to $4000.

The price of bribes had become impossibly high for AI saloons.
Pioneer – 5508, US unit – 4590, Sioux Rider – 2065

Bribes are now:
Pioneer – 3156, US unit – 2630, Sioux Rider – 1183

This may still be too high for AI saloons, but I don’t want to make it too easy for human player.

5. By week 35, the cattle rustling is still a no go, even for a human player. Though I know how to locate and block spawning locations without cheating, I do not intend to tackle this source of funds until whores have managed to bribe a couple of Sioux Warriors who can ride rings around the ranchers. The AI saloons have also not been successful at rustling. I think that it is too bad that this very original idea is getting no use.

6. The new versions of US units seem to be working quite well. When they get into town, they do destroy weak units, mainly Irish Boxers, that are in the open but get killed when they attack a saloon. As long as the Boss is around, the saloon is in no danger. However, the steady stream of US units from the southeast makes building new saloons across the river in Squattertown a very interesting adventure.

7. By week 35 there have been two cycles of global warming (without terrain changes). I have taken the liberty of attaching a copy of the Gold Gulch.scn file in your latest download , edited to prevent terrain changes when global warming occurs. If there is a later version, I can do a quick fix if you either attach it to a post or e-mail it to me. Future Gold Gulch downloads would no longer have global warming to cause problems for playtesters.

Attachment: gold gulch.scn
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	25-10-2004 03:47									#157
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quote: 1. Change width of @REPORTFOREIGN in the GAME file from 580 to 780. This lets players with 17” or larger screens see the entire descripion of each saloon. I don’t think that such a change will hurt anyone playing with a laptops or a smaller screen.

-Ok, changed. Thank you.

quote: 2. Why does Double Diamond start with 2 Prospectors? All other saloons have only one. That is a considerable advantage for Double Diamond.

-Westernmost prospector eliminated. I'd also like to draw attention to that fact that DDiamond has a raft to start out with owing to its position between the other saloons and the river.

quote: 3. Change name of Gunboat to US Gunboat for consistency. Also, FYI, a Gunboat has been killing Double Diamond Irish Boxers for the last 6 turns (and still counting) and only now is showing a red health bar. Obviously not a unit to be treated lightly.

-Lowered its defense to 4 and I would keep it just "Gunboat" as the saloons can research for it.

quote: 4. The following event may be boosting bribe costs a bit too much. @IF RANDOMTURN denominator=5 @THEN CHANGEMONEY receiver=Sioux Nation amount=1000 @ENDIF Week 22 a Pioneer cost $3420 to bribe (Sioux treasury = $4393) but by week 32 the price had increased to $4380 (Sioux treasury = $5822). There seems to be a weekly decrease of $30-70 in the Sioux treasury (rush buying?) while the event adds ~ $333 per week (I'm assuming that denominator=5 means that, on the average, the event will occur every 3 weeks). This may be a bit too much. Week 32, the amounts in the various treasuries were: Blue Moon – 5817 Golden Nugget – 0 Double Diamond – 3722 5 Star – 1791 Royale Inn - 1651 None of the AI saloons can bribe a Pioneer. I suspect that if Double Diamond had not started out with 2 Prospector, it also would have less than $2000. Consequently, week 35 I made the following changes to EVENTS: @IF RANDOMTURN denominator=5 @THEN CHANGEMONEY receiver=Sioux Nation amount=300 @ENDIF I also changed the Sioux treasury from $7521 to $4000. The price of bribes had become impossibly high for AI saloons. Pioneer – 5508, US unit – 4590, Sioux Rider – 2065 Bribes are now: Pioneer – 3156, US unit – 2630, Sioux Rider – 1183 This may still be too high for AI saloons, but I don’t want to make it too easy for human player.

-Changed to $300! Thanks, I didn't know if the Sioux would have enough cash due to their low level terrain cities so I just set it at a random number.

quote: 5. By week 35, the cattle rustling is still a no go, even for a human player. Though I know how to locate and block spawning locations without cheating, I do not intend to tackle this source of funds until whores have managed to bribe a couple of Sioux Warriors who can ride rings around the ranchers. The AI saloons have also not been successful at rustling. I think that it is too bad that this very original idea is getting no use.

-Ranchers given a movement of 1 (with alpine), instead of 2 (with alpine). I don't want to make it to easy early on as the Saloons will be able to research for mounted gun men later in the game, opening up the corral. If someone wants to rush in with a couple dozen irish boxers then more power to them When the update gets posted try out the new movements for the rancher. If the AI is still not attacking then I suggest we think about making up a seperate SP and MP version.

quote: 6. The new versions of US units seem to be working quite well. When they get into town, they do destroy weak units, mainly Irish Boxers, that are in the open but get killed when they attack a saloon. As long as the Boss is around, the saloon is in no danger. However, the steady stream of US units from the southeast makes building new saloons across the river in Squattertown a very interesting adventure.

-Awesome. As it should be.

quote: 7. By week 35 there have been two cycles of global warming (without terrain changes). I have taken the liberty of attaching a copy of the Gold Gulch.scn file in your latest download , edited to prevent terrain changes when global warming occurs. If there is a later version, I can do a quick fix if you either attach it to a post or e-mail it to me. Future Gold Gulch downloads would no longer have global warming to cause problems for playtesters.

-I will email you the latest when it's time for a new update. I usually just go off of one save and leave the global warming for last, but if you could do it for me that would be great.

	25-10-2004 03:52									#158
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by N35t0r One minor nitpick: The saloon size tags overlay the 'star' badge that represents city walls in some cases. Off the top of my head, i can only remember size 8 blue civ's saloons having this problem

I'll take a look. I think the light blue dot takes care of the size tags.

	25-10-2004 04:16									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle Ranchers given a movement of 1 (with alpine), instead of 2 (with alpine). I don't want to make it to easy early on as the Saloons will be able to research for mounted gun men later in the game, opening up the corral. If someone wants to rush in with a couple dozen irish boxers then more power to them When the update gets posted try out the new movements for the rancher. If the AI is still not attacking then I suggest we think about making up a seperate SP and MP version.

Sorry, I'm a bit confused by 'If the AI is still not attacking'. Are you referring to ranchers attacking saloon units or saloon units trying to get themselves a steak dinner?

There is no problem with the ranchers not attacking saloon units. A Golden Nugget Irish boyo fortified itself near the northern exit during turn2. Every few turns since then it has been attacked by a rancher and there has been a message that another rancher has bit the dust. The $100 deductions have definitely affected everyone's treasuries.

The saloon units have not tried rustling.

The spawned Pioneers have not left the spawning area. I've had a whore stationed there since the beginning and have watched them mill around.

	25-10-2004 04:59									#160
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by AGRICOLA Sorry, I'm a bit confused by 'If the AI is still not attacking'. Are you referring to ranchers attacking saloon units or saloon units trying to get themselves a steak dinner? There is no problem with the ranchers not attacking saloon units. A Golden Nugget Irish boyo fortified itself near the northern exit during turn2. Every few turns since then it has been attacked by a rancher and there has been a message that another rancher has bit the dust. The $100 deductions have definitely affected everyone's treasuries. The saloon units have not tried rustling. The spawned Pioneers have not left the spawning area. I've had a whore stationed there since the beginning and have watched them mill around.

Ok, so you're saying it's not an issue of the saloon units getting to the cows because of the ranchers. You're saying that once the saloon units get to the cows they aren't attacking them period.

	25-10-2004 05:10									#161
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Ok, how about this. In order to make the T-storms attack I upped the unit cost of the saloon owners making them more valuable. If I up the value of the stears then the AI might atack them more frequently.

	25-10-2004 05:16									#162
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Also, I'm giving all the Sioux cities palaces through the utility program CivCity so that the cities cannot be bribed as the Sioux are not a Democracy.

	25-10-2004 06:06									#163
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle Ok, so you're saying it's not an issue of the saloon units getting to the cows because of the ranchers. You're saying that once the saloon units get to the cows they aren't attacking them period.

Exactly. There were 5 Irish Boxers in the corral at the start. Blue Moon's pulled out. The ranchers have killed two. The remaining two have been sitting there since week 2, fortified and doing nothing even when there are steers within a couple of squares. Maybe units with better attack numbers would be more active. I'm going to experiment a bit with that idea.

	25-10-2004 07:53									#164
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Units with the attack role (instead of defense )

	25-10-2004 08:00									#165
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Got it.

Scouts are much better rustlers than are Irish Boxers. However, one still moved out of the corral after riding around for 10 or so turns.

Thanks for the explanation.

	25-10-2004 08:11									#166
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Ok, while Agricola is experimenting with the cattle, what else should be on my to do list? I already have the following:

1) Convert and swap in the sounds

2) Draw the Saloon owners

3) DLL's and spaceship (this will be last)

As for suggestions:

- I have a bit more KB to use up in the events file and one more unit slot to use. I could put in an event, as Smiley suggested, that will give the players cash for killing the animals, but this would be of large scope as each civ would need a trigger. So I'm thinking of something smaller.

Also, for further playtesting:

1) I need to know if guerilla warfare works. The partisans were replaced by a drunken Mariachi band and should have an event that tells the player what that whole flavor unit is about. Does it work?

2) How are the special units, Butch Cassidy, Calamity Jane, etc... working? Do they show up when their tech is discovered? They should show up only once and be under the civ who discovered the tech first.

3) How nasty are the Sioux units? Are they a real pain?

4) Has anyone built any improvements, like street light, liquor, gun nests, or gambling? How are those? Can you build them outside of the city terrain tiles?

5) How are the vermin? Do they act like nukes?

6) Are the city improvements working like they should?

Let me know if you have encountered these things, thanks.

	25-10-2004 14:19									#167
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Regarding rustling, N35t0r is right in that you need attack role units in the corral. Both Scouts and Railway Men rustle cattle. The first problem is that none of these units can long survive attacks by respawning ranchers.

The second problem is that there is no movement of units from Gold Gulch to the corral. By turn 42, there are Railway Workers and the odd Whore heading north, towards Sioux territory but nothing is moving east.

A minor problem is that, within the corral, an attack unit that ends up near the southeast end of the corral seems to have no interest in cattle and usually leaves the corral.

The solution would be to have a random turn event (denominator=10?) for each saloon that creates an attack unit in the corral. That would keep the rustling going and provide a bit of cash. However, do you have enough space in the EVENTS file?

I'm not familiar with the intricacies of events, but I wonder if it is worth having a copy for each saloon of the following event?

@IF
UNITKILLED
unit=Rancher
attacker=5 Star Saloon
defender=ANYBODY
@THEN
TEXT
A Rancher has been killed! If the perpetrator keeps doing this the townsfolk will round up a
posse to deliver the guilty party to justice! Lose $100 for having to send men into hiding.
ENDTEXT
CREATEUNIT
unit=Rancher
owner=Sioux Nation
veteran=yes
homecity=NONE
locations
70,58
78,64
74,60
endlocations
CHANGEMONEY
receiver=TRIGGERATTACKER
amount=-100
@ENDIF

What would happen if it was changed to

@IF
UNITKILLED
unit=Rancher
attacker=ANYBODY
defender=ANYBODY
@THEN
TEXT
A Rancher has been killed! If the perpetrator keeps doing this the townsfolk will round up a
posse to deliver the guilty party to justice! Lose $100 for having to send men into hiding.
ENDTEXT
CREATEUNIT
unit=Rancher
owner=Sioux Nation
veteran=yes
homecity=NONE
locations
70,58
78,64
74,60
endlocations
CHANGEMONEY
receiver=ANYBODY
amount=-100
@ENDIF

I'm not sure if the receiver=ANYBODY will work, but perhaps it is not all that important as the amount of money involved is small. However, removing four of these events may free up enough space to create rustlers on an ongoing basis.

quote: How nasty are the Sioux units? Are they a real pain?

They are both nasty and a pain.

I have avoided them and Nature units like the plague. If a Prospector sees a Sioux Warrior or a Grizzly, he and his donkey RUN! A couple of the opposition's Prospectors have not been as astute and have had their scalps lifted by Sioux Riders.

Right now the three Prospectors and two Whores in Sioux territory are managing to stay alive but, as the number of hostiles increases, I will try to replace Prospectors with US Cav Mounted, a unit that can fight off hostiles as well as prospect.

quote: How are the special units, Butch Cassidy, Calamity Jane, etc... working? Do they show up when their tech is discovered? They should show up only once and be under the civ who discovered the tech first.

Wild Bill Hickock showed up when 5 Star discovered Gambling. It is too early for the others.

quote: Are the city improvements working like they should?

Barracks, City Walls and Courthouse are working OK.

	25-10-2004 16:41									#168
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I got curious about what units would be required to wipe out one of the other saloons, an exercise that requires killing its Boss.

The setup was simple.

Target - Al Seargander (Big Al), fortified in his Golden Nugget Saloon
Saloon Improvements - Old Irish Boxer and Armed Bouncer (Barracks and City Walls)

Attackers A - 60 vet US Cav Mounted, arguably the best unit that is available in numbers.

Results:
Attack1 - 28 cavalry were lying on the ground before Big Al croaked.
Attack2 - 60 cavalry did their Balaclava act but Big Al was still on his feet (1 HP), cursing all his enemies.


Attackers B - 1 vet Wild Bill Hickok and 9 clones
Attack1 - 6 Wild Bills lay in the dust before Big Al gave up the ghost.
Attack2 - 3 Wild Bills needed coffins before Al did.

Conclusions:
1. The number of bodies depended on how soon Big Al got vet status.
2. For all intents and purposes, it is impossible to kill another saloon.

	25-10-2004 18:49									#169
	Got spare money?

I'm probably a bit late with this, but you might want to check out the Great Library for all sorts of details on game mechanics.

This page deals with unit bribe cost (and al other dip/spy activities):
http://home.tiscali.cz:8080/~cz045662/civ2/dipspy.htm

	25-10-2004 19:09									#170
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quote: Originally posted by AGRICOLA Regarding rustling, N35t0r is right in that you need attack role units in the corral. Both Scouts and Railway Men rustle cattle. The first problem is that none of these units can long survive attacks by respawning ranchers. The second problem is that there is no movement of units from Gold Gulch to the corral. By turn 42, there are Railway Workers and the odd Whore heading north, towards Sioux territory but nothing is moving east. A minor problem is that, within the corral, an attack unit that ends up near the southeast end of the corral seems to have no interest in cattle and usually leaves the corral. The solution would be to have a random turn event (denominator=10?) for each saloon that creates an attack unit in the corral. That would keep the rustling going and provide a bit of cash. However, do you have enough space in the EVENTS file? I'm not familiar with the intricacies of events, but I wonder if it is worth having a copy for each saloon of the following event? @IF UNITKILLED unit=Rancher attacker=5 Star Saloon defender=ANYBODY @THEN TEXT A Rancher has been killed! If the perpetrator keeps doing this the townsfolk will round up a posse to deliver the guilty party to justice! Lose $100 for having to send men into hiding. ENDTEXT CREATEUNIT unit=Rancher owner=Sioux Nation veteran=yes homecity=NONE locations 70,58 78,64 74,60 endlocations CHANGEMONEY receiver=TRIGGERATTACKER amount=-100 @ENDIF What would happen if it was changed to @IF UNITKILLED unit=Rancher attacker=ANYBODY defender=ANYBODY @THEN TEXT A Rancher has been killed! If the perpetrator keeps doing this the townsfolk will round up a posse to deliver the guilty party to justice! Lose $100 for having to send men into hiding. ENDTEXT CREATEUNIT unit=Rancher owner=Sioux Nation veteran=yes homecity=NONE locations 70,58 78,64 74,60 endlocations CHANGEMONEY receiver=ANYBODY amount=-100 @ENDIF I'm not sure if the receiver=ANYBODY will work, but perhaps it is not all that important as the amount of money involved is small. However, removing four of these events may free up enough space to create rustlers on an ongoing basis.

- I think the "pop up rustler" idea is a good one. Let me float this idea past everyone: In the open unit slot I drop in Rusty, the old & dirty prospector. Rusty randomly meanders around the map. You "kill" Rusty, he "tells" you where the Dalton gang is (by the corral), and you use the Dalton gang to rustle cattle. Rusty can respawn somewhere near the town so the AI can get a shot at him. I don't necessarily want to just give any players units to accomplish rustling, seeing as the whole idea is for cattle rustling to be a strategic advantage. He who can stay on the top of the mountain is the King of the mountain, so to speak.

As for the event change, it won't work. This is the same problem we had with the Gold Nugget event. The ANYBODY command is interpreted as: Whichever Civ triggers this event first will always exclusively trigger this event. No other Civ can use the trigger after the trigger has been first used.

quote: They are both nasty and a pain. I have avoided them and Nature units like the plague. If a Prospector sees a Sioux Warrior or a Grizzly, he and his donkey RUN! A couple of the opposition's Prospectors have not been as astute and have had their scalps lifted by Sioux Riders. Right now the three Prospectors and two Whores in Sioux territory are managing to stay alive but, as the number of hostiles increases, I will try to replace Prospectors with US Cav Mounted, a unit that can fight off hostiles as well as prospect.

-Good!

quote: Wild Bill Hickock showed up when 5 Star discovered Gambling. It is too early for the others.

-Excellent.

quote: Barracks, City Walls and Courthouse are working OK.

-

	25-10-2004 20:12									#171
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle Ok, while Agricola is experimenting with the cattle, what else should be on my to do list? I already have the following: 1) Convert and swap in the sounds 2) Draw the Saloon owners 3) DLL's and spaceship (this will be last)

No other idea, sounds good!

quote: Also, for further playtesting: 1) I need to know if guerilla warfare works. The partisans were replaced by a drunken Mariachi band and should have an event that tells the player what that whole flavor unit is about. Does it work?

I think I remeber from my 1st playtest that it worked!

Not 100% sure, though!

quote: 2) How are the special units, Butch Cassidy, Calamity Jane, etc... working? Do they show up when their tech is discovered? They should show up only once and be under the civ who discovered the tech first.

Again, from my 1st playtest, they work OK! I had the complete set, I think! I was way ahead in techs, and bribed the only one I didn't get by tech!

quote: 3) How nasty are the Sioux units? Are they a real pain?

Again, on my 1st and 2nd playtest (i.e. NOT with the latest version you just released), they were not a real pain: they only occasionally caught my prospectors who didn't leave the rivers so as to keep a great mobility!

quote: 4) Has anyone built any improvements, like street light, liquor, gun nests, or gambling? How are those? Can you build them outside of the city terrain tiles?

Nothing except road and RR, so can't help you there, sorry! But those were buildable on the other tiles too, I think!

quote: 5) How are the vermin? Do they act like nukes?

Haven't tried! But I will in my current test (not with the latest version!)

quote: 6) Are the city improvements working like they should?

Yes, I think I built them all, and I can't remember any which didn't work!


Now, I'm currently playing with the 2nd to last version you released: do you want me to stop and test the latest, or to go on with that one (which would be faster, as I wouldn't need to restart from scratch...)??

	25-10-2004 20:33									#172
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator I'm probably a bit late with this, but you might want to check out the Great Library for all sorts of details on game mechanics. This page deals with unit bribe cost (and al other dip/spy activities): http://home.tiscali.cz:8080/~cz045662/civ2/dipspy.htm

I'm going to try out that formula out as soon as I can. Most of what the page says makes sense, but I will have to see how they set up their formula. I might have things arranged differently.

	25-10-2004 22:56									#173
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle As for the event change, it won't work. This is the same problem we had with the Gold Nugget event. The ANYBODY command is interpreted as: Whichever Civ triggers this event first will always exclusively trigger this event. No other Civ can use the trigger after the trigger has been first used.

Yes, I tested that, and you're right. So perhaps you might take a hard look at whether the space used by the following event

@IF
UNITKILLED
unit=Gun Boat
attacker=Golden Nugget Saloon
defender=ANYBODY
@THEN
TEXT
A US Gun Boat has been sunk! The military will be sure to float another one down your way...
ENDTEXT
CREATEUNIT
unit=Gun Boat
owner=Sioux Nation
veteran=yes
homecity=NONE
locations
5,85
10,88
6,94
endlocations
@ENDIF

might be put to better use as a place to generate rustlers. IMO, rustling plays a much more important role in the scen than river warfare.

The 5 gunboat events can probably be replaced with a single event that generates a Sioux gunboat either regular or random intervals. The accompanying message would not be necessary.

	25-10-2004 23:21									#174
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Don't worry, event space isn't that premium anymore. The gunboat is supposed to be a very powerful unit, so there needs to be just one. If the unit was created on a turn interval then there might be a whole armada sailing down the river. I should be able to work something in for the rustler events without sacrificing.

	26-10-2004 01:10									#175
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Liquour I was only able to build on certain 'town' tiles, but i built lamp post all over the place (and even one to the corral and all the way to the other side of the river, as I don't have any riverside saloons.

	26-10-2004 01:13									#176
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quote: Originally posted by N35t0r Liquour I was only able to build on certain 'town' tiles, but i built lamp post all over the place (and even one to the corral and all the way to the other side of the river, as I don't have any riverside saloons.

Ok, good. Lamp posts are roads of course, and they can be built everywhere. Irrigation and mining can be tied to certain terrain types, which is what I wanted to check.

	26-10-2004 03:07									#177
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Have you given any thought to what the D should be for the Bosses? The current D=25 is much too high.

I'm going to try D=8, 1 more than any other human character in the scen. Even that may be too high once a saloon builds City Walls. If the Boss gets vet status, he is D=36 if he is behind Walls. The best vet attacker in the scen has an A=10.

I'm not certain whether it is your intent that the 5 starting saloons cannot be destroyed so that the fighting has to be over newly built ones.

Any suggestions would be welcome before I go after the b******s in Golden Nugget?

	26-10-2004 04:21									#178
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Hmmm, well, try some siege tactics?

	26-10-2004 07:21									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Harry Tuttle I'm going to try out that formula out as soon as I can. Most of what the page says makes sense, but I will have to see how they set up their formula. I might have things arranged differently.

I don't know. I'm trying to get the Great Library formula to work, but I dare to say that it's not correct.

I've done some testing at distances of 15 tiles and under, placing the pioneers directly in line of the capital Sioux city so as to create a long (15, 14, 13...) side with a short side of 1 tile rectangle, as described in the distance measurements. I plugged the values into the formula and no go, nothing matched, even when tested against multiple treasury balances.

Can someone check my computations?

	26-10-2004 07:23									#180
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Here's the test save.

Attachment: bribetest.sav
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