25-09-2004 13:01									#91
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker The brave man volunteered to serve his country and earned 3 Purple Hearts and Bush isn't man enough to call him a coward, he has his 3rd party attack dogs do it for him.

Ted, you have got to come in out of the dark. The shadows are scaring you.

	25-09-2004 13:04									#92
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I find it fascinating how the "flip-flop" tag has been attached to Kerry, especially in regards to that $87 billion Iraq/Afghanistan spending bill that was voted on last year by Congress. He initially supported the legislation and voted for it. The legislation was then altered — presumably in conference committee between the Senate and House, in order to hammer out differences — to the point where he didn't support it any longer and, thus, he voted against the *altered* version of the bill.

How does that represent a flip-flop? The bill he supported and the bill he voted against were different. They weren't the same. Going on memory alone, I believe language in the first bill would've required that some of the funding going to Iraq be in the form of loans, not grants. The second version of the bill — the one Kerry opposed — had stripped that language, making all the money in the form of grants. In other words, costing the U.S. taxpayer more money.

Hmm. Perhaps I'm simply thinking too much. That's a no-no in U.S. politics.

Gatekeeper

P.S. By the way, all those schools, water lines, roads, power grids, oil lines, etc., we're putting up in Iraq aren't going to matter if they're constantly damaged or destroyed by insurgents and we do nothing (or little) to crush them once and for all. So that's probably why the attacks and kidnappings get more media attention than the "good" stuff. It's hard to put things back in shape in the midst of a guerrilla war.

	25-09-2004 13:14									#93
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Gatekeeper, what you say it true to a degree. Republicans are being a bit unfair on this issue, but there is an overall pattern of changing positions, even within hours at times, depending on the audience he is addressing.

As to Iraq, what we really need to do is train up the Iraqi's and get out.

	25-09-2004 13:27									#94
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Gatekeeper, what you say it true to a degree. Republicans are being a bit unfair on this issue, but there is an overall pattern of changing positions, even within hours at times, depending on the audience he is addressing. As to Iraq, what we really need to do is train up the Iraqi's and get out.

Its really hard to judge this sort of thing. If you go by how people vote in Congress its possible to paint ANYONE as a flip-flopper since bits of one good omnibus bill inevitably contradict bits of another good omnibus bill. And with people who talk as much as politicians its ridiuclously easy to take stuff out of context. I'm not sure to what extent Kerry is a flip-flopper, but I'm pretty sure its been exaggerated since good non partisan sources like www.factcheck.org have torn up some Republican claims pretty well and if that's the best they have its not much and then if Kerry is as liberal as Republicans suggest then how the hell can he be staunchly liberal while contradicting himself to please everyone?

That isn't to say that I don't think that Kerry is a slimy grandstanding douchebag and that the prospect of being forced to vote for him doesn't digust me, but I haven't seen any good evidence that he isn't that more of a flip-flopper than the average Senator.

	25-09-2004 13:30									#95
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Oh and on the Iraq funding thingie, I'm not going to defend him at all. What he did was mind-numbingly stupid. He was for funding the war but wanted to have it funded as loans to Iraq, not grants which is an idiotic way to fun a war like the Iraq one.

	25-09-2004 13:53									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Gatekeeper, what you say it true to a degree. Republicans are being a bit unfair on this issue, but there is an overall pattern of changing positions, even within hours at times, depending on the audience he is addressing.

As opposed to Bush, who would insist that the sun is shining and the sky is clear, even if it's a storming outside and a massive tornado is spinning toward his home as he speaks. Heh. Kerry and Bush ... an interesting pair of candidates for the presidency. Oh, well. Perhaps the debates will differentiate them to the point that I might vote for one or the other. Then again, I can always go third-, fourth- or fifth-party, since a number of them qualified to appear on the ballot in my state.

quote: As to Iraq, what we really need to do is train up the Iraqi's and get out.

The "Iraqi-ization" of the war in Iraq. Kind of reminds me of South Vietnam in those final years of its existence. At any rate, I tend to agree that, unless more Iraqis are trained for enforcement purposes, we're going to be there for the foreseeable future. And assuming we get them trained properly (and in sufficient numbers), we still have the issue of whether or not they'll actually take law enforcement action against their own citizens. Or not break ranks and run when confronting bona fide insurgents.

Four more years of Bush? Four more years of Iraq.

Gatekeeper

	25-09-2004 14:06									#97
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Four more years of Bush? Survival for Iraq.

Four years of Kerry? 1+ million dead Iraqis.

	25-09-2004 15:16									#98
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Giannie's bald assertions? Priceless.

	25-09-2004 15:26									#99
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quote: Oh and on the Iraq funding thingie, I'm not going to defend him at all. What he did was mind-numbingly stupid. He was for funding the war but wanted to have it funded as loans to Iraq, not grants which is an idiotic way to fun a war like the Iraq one.

I agree, though to clarify, he thought that only the $20 billion in reconstruction funds ought to be funded through loans. Of course, it doesn't make all that much of a difference in hindsight given that the Bush Admin funded our corporate welfare mainly through Iraqi oil revenues, without disbursing the vast majority of reconstruction funds (and dipping into it to fund the military).

	25-09-2004 16:22									#100
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Nevertheless, it was "only the $20 billion in reconstruction funds" that was concrened about, and led him to nix the whole package.

	25-09-2004 19:02									#101
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What's your point? You honestly think there would be absolutely no more attempts at funding the war if that bill were defeated?

	25-09-2004 19:37									#102
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper As opposed to Bush, who would insist that the sun is shining and the sky is clear, even if it's a storming outside and a massive tornado is spinning toward his home as he speaks. Heh. Kerry and Bush ... an interesting pair of candidates for the presidency.

Gatekeeper, please be honest and fair here. Bush constantly says things are going to be hard and not easy, and he does not say that all problems are solved in Iraq. Democrats are very fond of misquoting him in the form of setting up a straw man, and then knocking that strawman down. If you want examples, I can give you examples.

quote: The "Iraqi-ization" of the war in Iraq. Kind of reminds me of South Vietnam in those final years of its existence. At any rate, I tend to agree that, unless more Iraqis are trained for enforcement purposes, we're going to be there for the foreseeable future. And assuming we get them trained properly (and in sufficient numbers), we still have the issue of whether or not they'll actually take law enforcement action against their own citizens. Or not break ranks and run when confronting bona fide insurgents. Four more years of Bush? Four more years of Iraq. Gatekeeper

It all depends on how soon the Iraqi forces can take over. It took Nixon 3 1/2 years to get our troops out of Vietnam after he began the withdrawal in the summer of '69.

	25-09-2004 19:41									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo What's your point? You honestly think there would be absolutely no more attempts at funding the war if that bill were defeated?

Ramo, Kerry, knowing that the bill would pass with overwhelming support in the Senate, could have voted yes. Had he done so, he would not now be acused of abandoning our troops in the field as he advocated once before in the case of Vietnam. But no, he voted against the bill, as did his VP choice, in order to curry favor with the Deaneacs and you know it.

	25-09-2004 19:47									#104
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Fortunately, it appears that NATO is going to increase its training forces in Iraq. This should speed up the process of getting a legitimate force in the field.

I was encouraged by Allawi's positive outlook. When he stated that 15 of the 18 provinces in Iraq could hold elections today from a security standpoint, it really brought home how much the media is fo0cusing on the negative.

I have not been suprised by the insurgencey in Iraq...what has suprised me is how tamely we have dealt with it. The only reason I can think of is that we don't want the general population to believe that we are real hard-asses. I think that they would respect us more, however, if we had finished the job in Fallujah to start with.

All in all, I believe in the Iraqi peoples' ability to overcome those that wish to cause strife and turmoil in their country.

	25-09-2004 20:12									#105
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quote: Ramo, Kerry, knowing that the bill would pass with overwhelming support in the Senate, could have voted yes. Had he done so, he would not now be acused of abandoning our troops in the field as he advocated once before in the case of Vietnam. But no, he voted against the bill, as did his VP choice, in order to curry favor with the Deaneacs and you know it.

It was a protest vote, Ned. It didn't make a difference either way. I strongly disagreed with his reasons for opposing it, but accusing him or Edwards of not wanting to support the troops, etc. is intellectually dishonest.

quote: I was encouraged by Allawi's positive outlook. When he stated that 15 of the 18 provinces in Iraq could hold elections today from a security standpoint, it really brought home how much the media is fo0cusing on the negative.

There isn't any particular reason to believe him.

	25-09-2004 20:20									#106
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quote: Originally posted by Ned "This brave man came to our country to talk about how he's risking his life for a free Iraq, which helps America, and Senator Kerry held a press conference and questioned Prime Minister Allawi's credibility," said Bush. http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v3/n...te.php?id=94819

Sure, Allawi is "brave" - if the **** hits the fan, you damn well know he'll be here faster than Nguyen Cao Ky was, he doesn't venture out of the center of the Green Zone without major escort, and only then into relatively secure areas. Despite that, he does get some points for bravery. He's taken some risk to acquire power.

For that matter, so did Saddam, Ida Amin, Pol Pot and just about anyone else who has assumed national power in any unstable third world country.

It has squat to do with his credibility, or his trying to put sunshine up all our asses because that's what he has to do for massah.

I liked Bush's other quote better, the one about how you can't lead this country if you question the leader of Iraq.

Gee, I never knew sucking Iraqi dick was now a requirement for the Presidency of the US. Thanks, Dubya, for that clarification.

	25-09-2004 20:23									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Ned Gatekeeper, please be honest and fair here. Bush constantly says things are going to be hard and not easy, and he does not say that all problems are solved in Iraq. Democrats are very fond of misquoting him in the form of setting up a straw man, and then knocking that strawman down. If you want examples, I can give you examples.

Yeah - there's just a handful of nasty people who are messing things up. That's why we cede control of four major cities to the enemy, and we got five more KIA today, over a year after "Mission Accomplished."

quote: It all depends on how soon the Iraqi forces can take over. It took Nixon 3 1/2 years to get our troops out of Vietnam after he began the withdrawal in the summer of '69.

And the ARVN folded up and went to **** in two more years after that. Unlike Vietnam, the whole world does have a vital economic interest in what happens in and around Iraq.

	25-09-2004 20:23									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: I was encouraged by Allawi's positive outlook. When he stated that 15 of the 18 provinces in Iraq could hold elections today from a security standpoint, it really brought home how much the media is fo0cusing on the negative. There isn't any particular reason to believe him.

Or disbelieve him eithier. He certainly should be better informed than eithier of us though.

quote: I never knew sucking Iraqi dick was now a requirement for the Presidency of the US.

That's why you could never be Prez.

	25-09-2004 20:24									#109
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Yeah, that job requirement leaves me out.

	25-09-2004 20:25									#110
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Yeah - there's just a handful of nasty people who are messing things up. That's why we cede control of four major cities to the enemy, and we got five more KIA today, over a year after "Mission Accomplished."

You read and heard the whole speech...so unlike you to take things that drastically out of context.

	25-09-2004 20:25									#111
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat Yeah, that job requirement leaves me out.

ME TOO!!

	25-09-2004 20:32									#112
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO You read and heard the whole speech...so unlike you to take things that drastically out of context.

I think the "handful" remark speaks volumes. We have had opportunities for over a year to drastically limit the potential for growth of this insurgency, and failed to capitalize on those opportunities.

No matter what else Bush says now, we have a lot of good men in the ground now due to constant underestimation of enemy will and capability and opportunism.

	25-09-2004 20:38									#113
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quote: Or disbelieve him eithier

Seeing as how the insurgency has escalated throughout the Sunni triangle - there's been major fighting this month in the several Sunni provinces including Baghdad, and there was heavy fighting last month in a few of the Shia provinces, particularly Najaf and Kut, I find his claims hard to believe.

In any case, he's a thug, and would do anything to stay in power. Lying isn't that big a deal, comparatively.

quote: He certainly should be better informed than eithier of us though.

He's better informed - surely Saddam was better informed than any of us about Iraq also, but that's not the issue. Which is trust.

	25-09-2004 20:42									#114
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quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat I think the "handful" remark speaks volumes. We have had opportunities for over a year to drastically limit the potential for growth of this insurgency, and failed to capitalize on those opportunities. No matter what else Bush says now, we have a lot of good men in the ground now due to constant underestimation of enemy will and capability and opportunism.

I agree with the first part...we have squadered opportunities to deal with the insurgency.

WRT, the second part, I am not so sure that we as much underestimated them as we don't have the will to deal with them. The siege of Fallujah keeps coming to mind. We had the power and the plan to take care of business, but ended up walking away...what a stupid mistake! My take on it is that the Bush admin is afraid of alienating what support they do have among the Iraqis and further eroding our international image. My belief is that we would have gained respect from the common man on the street for taking decisive action. Nonetheless...the opportunites missed statement holds.

	25-09-2004 20:47									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo quote: He certainly should be better informed than eithier of us though. He's better informed - surely Saddam was better informed than any of us about Iraq also, but that's not the issue. Which is trust.

Okay, but who do you trust? The media?

	25-09-2004 20:53									#116
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Yes. Far more than that thug.

	25-09-2004 21:01									#117
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Yes. Far more than that thug.

I would say that both have an agenda. It is really hard to try and determine the truth about what is happening anywhere these days. Still, given the overall population of Iraq and the limited area of insurgency, it would appear that there is some truth to what Allawi says. Given the amount of video of destruction and the number of body bags, there is probably some truth to the media accounts. My guess is that the real truth lies somewhere in the middle.

	25-09-2004 21:56									#118
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So you gave equal weight to Saddam's claims as to "the media's"? "The media" doesn't have a monolithic set of aims BTW, while Allawi does.

And why do you consider area of insurgency so "limited." Most of the Sunni areas are in rebellion, and large parts of the South were in rebellion just last month.

	25-09-2004 21:58									#119
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I don't trust Allawi at all. I trust the media only slightly.

	25-09-2004 22:04									#120
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I don't think Allawi or Karzai are particularly bad guys. In fact, given many of the alternatives, they're practically candidates for sainthood compared to some of the thugs available.

They just both have the obligation to sing their master's tune.