12-10-2004 20:03									#151
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quote: And you are only annulling victories cause Sheep has zero points (he lost all four matches).

I am not, but then, I do not have any way to prove that, no.

quote: Or rather, perhaps he didn't lose them, but was cheated as he stated.

We may disagree on how the situation will be dealt with, but I will not GM any further if you seriously believe I would cheat. I find that insulting to my GM'ing integrity, and I can not run a game if people think I cheat. I find it very unfortunate that a single, completely baseless accusation launched on nothing but misunderstanding has made this game go to where it is now.

	12-10-2004 20:38									#152
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I was just joking, like Sheep was Kassi

Nobody has accused you of cheating. In fact, it would be quite pointless here since there isn't any way to prove it

I was just trying to get the number of the players that are hurt by your rulings above 50%

	12-10-2004 23:26									#153
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Kass:

Please reconsider, because I don't think you initially understood my point.

Removing Sheep entirely is not a fair outcome, because the best the other players yet to play him could have done is beat him and get the same 3 points I did. Equally they might lose or draw.

By wiping out Sheep's results and replacing him with Sparrow you are handing the players that have played him a no-win card, because the best they can do it win again and get the 3 points back, but they may also lose.

Compare that to the other suggestion of letting Sparrow play Sheep's remaining games. It's not perfect, but unless you believe that Sparrow has a very different chance of winning or losing compared to Sheep had he played his remaining matches then the outcome is reasonably fair. I submit that Sparrow as a new player is a good and fair replacement for Sheep for the remaining matches.

That is eminently preferable to robbing the players who beat Sheep of the chance that the other players would lose or draw against him.

	12-10-2004 23:40									#154
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Ljube:

DrSpike: Considering that the majority of the players seem to favour just having Sparrowhawk replace Sheep for only the remaining games (at least only one person opposing it has managed to air his opinion), I'm going to go with that. I do think I'm doing something wrong if the most words from the player side are opposing the ruling.

So Sparrowhawk will only have to fight in three battles this turn. Sparrow's chances to get to the semis are slim, so consider it a learning experience.

	12-10-2004 23:43									#155
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Thanks for being rational enough to reconsider. Top GMing.

	13-10-2004 00:35									#156
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So... is it decided yet? Do I send in orders?

-Jam

	13-10-2004 00:39									#157
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Yes, it's decided. Sparrowhawk replaces Sheep for Round 3 (and possibly onwards). Send! (unless you don't play against Sheep this round and have already sent in orders)

	13-10-2004 01:58									#158
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quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia So Sparrowhawk will only have to fight in three battles this turn. Sparrow's chances to get to the semis are slim, so consider it a learning experience.

Actually I had neither the hope nor desire to qualify for the semis (though if I did or still do I will play of course).

My main hope in volunteering was to fill in for Sheep and allow the game to continue uninterupted, and to gain some understanding of this game while I did so.

Its all good though, and I will happily help however I can, and sign up for the next game with a better chance having gained from this experience.



* Sparrowhawk

	14-10-2004 23:14									#159
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Um, bump.

	14-10-2004 23:57									#160
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Waiting for orders from Drogue. Already harassed him with a PM.

	15-10-2004 01:29									#161
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That still leaves us without a solid way to handle dropped players for future games.

	15-10-2004 07:15									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Spaced Cowboy That still leaves us without a solid way to handle dropped players for future games.

There isn't one. There are actually many things to consider:

1) Dropping a person can change the ranking of players. Say if 2 players are dropped, and player A had beaten them both, and player B lost to both. Now player B has an advantage, which is inconsistent with the spirit of the game since A has performed better.

2) Veterans base future orders on past results. Player A may have sent in more conservative orders because he had a comfortable lead. If he was behind or even he may have taken some risky maneuvers against other opponents.

3) The feelings of the players, since the point is for them to have fun. As GM this should be your paramount concern.

I would say random numbers or forfeiting all future matches are probably the best outcomes in such a circumstance. Also in later games the GM should state at the beginning how he intends to resolve dropped players before completing the sign-up, as well as agreeing on set punishments. I'd say:

Dropped once: Banned from next game, unless was due to circumstances beyond control;

Dropped twice: Banned permanently from gladiators.

	15-10-2004 23:24									#163
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I agree on 1 - 3, though the 'least unfair' solutions presented aren't correct IMO. Forfeiture is bad since players yet to play the player that drops get a free win. Random orders will always be easy to counter, giving exactly the same effect.

The solution is to underline to players at the start (as I tried to do this time) that they have to send orders every 48 hours and if they drop they can screw up the game.

If that fails no solution is good; there should be one agreed beforehand though, because an 'unfair' solution that is agreed beforehand is better than one decided on after it is clear who is disadvantaged.

	15-10-2004 23:26									#164
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Btw I did try last game to encourage defaults. If there were enough of these to cover rounds left then it could work acceptably. Probably those that play after the player drops get a small advantage, and of course submitting lots of default orders would be a pain.

	16-10-2004 03:01									#165
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IIRC everyone who fought against random orders last game lost each time. so I don't understand how you get 'an easy win' for future players.

	16-10-2004 03:05									#166
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Anyways, you guys managed to get through 2 rounds and the sign-up in about 2 1/2 weeks, and this latest monkey wrench has stalled it for 9 days now. Hurry it up so I can return and put Spikie in his proper place, which is of course 2nd behind me.

	16-10-2004 03:52									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Theben IIRC everyone who fought against random orders last game lost each time. so I don't understand how you get 'an easy win' for future players.

Randomly chosen from past orders is fine if there are enough, as there was last time.

The talk here was of a randomly generated set of numbers as orders, which would be easy to beat.

	16-10-2004 03:54									#168
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Hurry it up so I can return and put Spikie in his proper place, which is of course 2nd behind me.

Spoken like a true person who dodges confrontation with proven champions such as myself.

	16-10-2004 04:00									#169
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I still need orders from Drogue. He's not dropping out, I refuse to end up in the mangle of a dropping out again, he promised me orders, but I've yet to receive any. A force majeure maybe? I don't know.

	16-10-2004 04:13									#170
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Spoken like a true person who dodges confrontation with proven champions such as myself.

I know you're thanking your lucky stars that you've escaped proper justice 2 tourneys in a row now.

	16-10-2004 14:18									#171
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All a champion can do is turn up to defend his honour. If his opponents are not as honourable, there is nothing he can do, alas.

	17-10-2004 15:06									#172
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* Theben looks at Drogue

Hmmm, been away for 3 days now. Hopefully he's returning soon. Anyone know anything of his whereabouts?

	19-10-2004 05:06									#173
	Re: FG: Gladiator VI - The Unbearable Lightness of Fighting Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The fighting is getting too light.

	20-10-2004 05:01									#174
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This has gone on long enough

I may not be playing but I won't stand by and watch my favorite forum game die! Drogue posted on the 17th; he could have sent orders.

Kass, you need to take action.

	20-10-2004 06:33									#175
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike Please reconsider, because I don't think you initially understood my point. Removing Sheep entirely is not a fair outcome, because the best the other players yet to play him could have done is beat him and get the same 3 points I did. Equally they might lose or draw. By wiping out Sheep's results and replacing him with Sparrow you are handing the players that have played him a no-win card, because the best they can do it win again and get the 3 points back, but they may also lose. Compare that to the other suggestion of letting Sparrow play Sheep's remaining games. It's not perfect, but unless you believe that Sparrow has a very different chance of winning or losing compared to Sheep had he played his remaining matches then the outcome is reasonably fair. I submit that Sparrow as a new player is a good and fair replacement for Sheep for the remaining matches.

I would tend to disagree. Sheep has shown to be pretty appauling at Gladiator, whereas many people aren't when they start. I would submit that there is a very different chance of winning vs. Sparrow than vs. Sheep, indeed, I would estimate that difference to be likely greater than the difference between the chance of beating Sheep and 100%, meaning giving wins to everyone yet to play him would be fairer. Since he can't go through, I'd have thought soemthing like random numbers might have been better.

Obviously this depends on how good Sparrow is, but given how badly Sheep's done, I would expect Sparrow, even being inexperienced, to be far better, thus changing it more unfair than giving everyone a win, in terms of expected result. Or the fairest way, since no-one but you knows what Sheep put, using sheep's old orders (but possibly rearranging in what hit things happen, just swapping 1st and 3rd for example) and letting us play him. That way we make it as fair as we can do.

I've put orders for whatever happens, but I believe changing Sheep for someone who is likely a far better player is grossly unfair in favour of those who've got easy wins so far. But then this is a game, so if you want to keep it like this, that's fine, and we get a newbie to spill some blood. I'm far more concerned with getting this played than with what's fair

	20-10-2004 06:41									#176
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Sent. Sorry I couldn't send orders earlier, I've never seen this much work in my life, and I've got my first hour or so off in the last few days tonight, having finally finished one essay. I promised myself last weekend off for matriculation and various conferences I wanted to attend, now paying for it with work. However I've been told it'll calm down after Thursday, when the last of these 3 essays and 2 sheets of maths problems goes in (that's a weeks work here ). Plus they didn't connect my computer for over a week

	20-10-2004 09:20									#177
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Oops. Looks like I don't need to take action. Save for finally calculating the battles.

	20-10-2004 09:29									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue I would submit that there is a very different chance of winning vs. Sparrow than vs. Sheep, indeed, I would estimate that difference to be likely greater than the difference between the chance of beating Sheep and 100%, meaning giving wins to everyone yet to play him would be fairer.

* Sparrowhawk crosses fingers that he doesn't embarrass himself by doing worse then Sheep (not sure how I would do worse then 0-4 in only 3 matches though )

quote: Originally posted by Drogue Obviously this depends on how good Sparrow is, but given how badly Sheep's done, I would expect Sparrow, even being inexperienced, to be far better, thus changing it more unfair than giving everyone a win, in terms of expected result.

* Sparrowhawk starts to sweat, maybe even being better then Sheep's 0-4 wouldn't be such a good thing

quote: Originally posted by Drogue I've put orders for whatever happens, but I believe changing Sheep for someone who is likely a far better player is grossly unfair in favour of those who've got easy wins so far.

Huge assumption in that sentence....but thanks for the sentiment

quote: Originally posted by Drogue I'm far more concerned with getting this played than with what's fair

My goal as well was to "get this played", in hindsight I should have signed up for this game from the start, I would have been the 9th player and never would have offered to replace Sheep when he resigned (and maybe even would have had a match against him )

Looking forward to seeing what happens in the remainder however...

* Sparrowhawk

	20-10-2004 11:57									#179
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Sheep has lost a lot of games, be he didn't lose them spectacularly. He wasn't using stupid orders (and yes I can infer more than you as I played him). That's why Sparrow as a replacement is closer to 'fair' than giving players not to have played him free wins.

Anyway, the orders are in I think, so lets press on.

	20-10-2004 13:52									#180
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Sent. Sorry I couldn't send orders earlier, I've never seen this much work in my life, and I've got my first hour or so off in the last few days tonight, having finally finished one essay.

Yeah, I noticed on L'Event you said you had a lot of work; just pop in and give us a head's up, eh?