29-10-2004 11:13									#91
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No problem Epw, thanks for telling us. Let see what the evil team thinks about it.

	29-10-2004 11:36									#92
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I'm ok with it. Just hope Barley checks it before so he can get a longer nap in.

	29-10-2004 20:58									#93
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Im not ok with it but ill be here at 1.30am

It’s a bit ridiculous starting games at such time but I can live with it. If possible can you try and arrange around the Friday game so we can start earlier.

Ill probably check lobby around 1.00am in case you’re here earlier. Maq, if others are here before that my number is [edited].

Last edited by Barley on 31-10-2004 at 18:24

	29-10-2004 21:27									#94
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I agree with you Barley, sorry for the late start. See you all around 1am

	30-10-2004 00:06									#95
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It's better than nothing still, considering we were planning to play to 6 or 7am anyway we'd still get 4 or 5hrs. But yeah the problem is waiting around to start late at night.

quote: Ill probably check lobby around 1.00am in case you’re here earlier. Maq, if others are here before that my number is....

Should I ask for Barley? No its ok i've got it. You can edit your number out now too.

	30-10-2004 09:23									#96
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

M/B 1.5 - 1 T/E

For the record

	30-10-2004 10:38									#98
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can you hear my tanks B/M, you will meet them on Sun 8gmt

	30-10-2004 10:59									#99
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Forgot to post the file. This has all the changes in the long post I made above.

Just put it in ...\ctp2_data\default\gamedata and dont forget to back up the old one.

Attachment: terrain.txt
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	30-10-2004 22:30									#100
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We using this sets for next game?, something else what do you think about slowing even more the sci? and also increasing the map a little bit guys.

Do you wona increase the tile imp cost more?

	30-10-2004 23:10									#101
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I just posted those terrain because Barley said he wanted to practice with them first before we use anything different.

I dont mind increasing map size and sci cost a little bit more again. The ones we're using now are 1.5x giga and 3x slower sci, so if we make it 1.75x giga and 5x slower sci. We tried 2x giga map before and it was a bit too big I think even for 4 players. I'll adjust the continent size too so we don't get those large collection of tiny islands.

Increasing tile imp cost might make the game more difficult to choose what to do, which i like Maybe a 25 or 50% increase on all tile imps and terraforming costs?

	30-10-2004 23:24									#102
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I agree Maq, lets increase it to 1.75x and slow the sci to 5x, and also add 50% more cost to tile imp and terr that will make game much more interesting.

So all of this will add to more strategy planning.

	30-10-2004 23:26									#103
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Maq if you think that the terrain sets you have posted are much more balanced from what we have now, lets then make a mode with all of the upper changes mentioned and play the next game with them.

What do you all think?

	30-10-2004 23:28									#104
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Hey Maq i will be later on icq say 9gmt, if you wona meet and try adjusting all of this together.

	31-10-2004 00:00									#105
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Ill make all the changes and put them together in a proper mod that uses modswapper, so you don't have to back up all these changed files all the time. After tomorrows game (which I dont think will be finished tomorrow) I'll post the mod here with all the changes we decide on and we can test it through the week to get comfitable with it.

	31-10-2004 01:24									#106
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Great Maq, oh something else, lets include the 200% forts and if we can try and make the fortify for the units stronger. Can we do that? Hate it when there are equal units and the one fortified gets killed, which is rather strange to me.

Ok guys see you tomorrow at 8gmt.

	31-10-2004 03:04									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Toni Great Maq, oh something else, lets include the 200% forts and if we can try and make the fortify for the units stronger. Can we do that? Hate it when there are equal units and the one fortified gets killed, which is rather strange to me.

Yeah I've done both of those. Forts to +200% and fortify to +100%.

You need modswapper to use it so you dont need to back up most of the files, you can download it here.

By the way I dont think you can get modswapper to backup the files infoscreen.ldl and loadsave.ldl from the folder ...\ctp2_data\english\uidata\layouts so make sure you backup these 2 files before you extract the mod.

I made plains 5 food 10 prod 5 commerce too because its a lot more interesting and spreads fair but different land everywhere. Here is every change anyway:

quote: x5 slower sci x1.75 giga map (increased continent amount proportionally to prevent tiny isles) no ruins no graphs (including one in load/save screen) all tech choices starting 3 techs - religeon, agriculture, toolmaking. fortifying a unit gives +100% defence (was +50%) fort defence +200% (was +50%) ---------- terrain: Food/Production/Commerce Was > Is now Add time/cost/advance = turns/pw cost/advance required to add this terrain Remove time/cost/advance = turns/pw cost/advance required to remove this terrain River +5/+5/+5 > +5/+0/+5 Forest Add advance agri. rev. > toolmaking Add cost 800 > 200 Remove advance agri. rev. > toolmaking Remove time 1 > 3 10/5/10 > 5/15/5 Plains 10/10/5 > 5/10/5 Add time 1 > 5 Tundra Remove time 2 > 5 0/5/0 > 5/5/0 Glacier Add advance adv. composites > gaia theory Remove advance adv. composites > gaia theory Remove time 5 > 10 Grassland Add advance toolmaking > agriculture Add time 1 > 5 Remove advance toolmaking > agriculture Desert Add advance agri. rev > conservation Remove advance agri. rev > conservation Remove time 1 > 7 Remove cost 400 > 800 0/0/5 > 0/10/5 Swamp Remove time 1 > 5 Remove cost 400 > 800 Jungle Add advance agri. rev. > indus. rev Remove advance agri. rev. > toolmaking Remove time 1 > 3 Remove cost 200 > 400 5/10/5 > 10/10/5 Mountain Add time 5 > 10 Remove time 5 > 10 0/15/10 > 0/15/5 Hill Add time 2 > 10 Remove time 3 > 10 Remove cost 600 > 1000 5/10/10 > 5/10/5 Shallow Water 10/10/5 > 10/5/10 Deep Water 10/10/5 > 10/5/10 Submarine Volcano 0/25/15 > 10/20/10 Beach 10/10/10 > 10/5/10 Continental Shelf 5/10/5 > 10/5/10 Sand Dunes Add time 2 > 10 Remove time 3 > 10 Remove cost 600 > 1000 Movement 2 > 3 Desert Mountain Add time 5 > 10 Remove time 5 > 10 0/10/10 > 0/15/5 Polar Hill Add time 2 > 10 Remove time 3 > 10 Remove cost 600 > 1000 0/5/5 > 0/10/5 Movement 2 > 3 Polar Mountain Add time 5 > 10 Remove time 5 > 10 0/10/5 > 0/15/5 Kelp Bed 15/10/5 > 15/5/10 Coral Reef 10/15/5 > 10/10/10 all terrain defence values x2 --------------- after the above changes are made, all terraforming and tile imp cost +50%

EDIT: Removed the attachment for now while we decide what else to change.

	31-10-2004 03:21									#108
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I disagree with reducing commerce on mountains/hills, don't see any need for it, espacially since we can't use specialists.

	31-10-2004 03:33									#109
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I don't agree with those values:

Plains
10/10/5 > 5/10/5
Add time 1 > 5

Forest
Add advance agri. rev. > toolmaking
Add cost 800 > 200
Remove advance agri. rev. > toolmaking
Remove time 1 > 3
10/5/10 > 5/15/5

Jungle
Add advance agri. rev. > indus. rev
Remove advance agri. rev. > toolmaking
Remove time 1 > 3
Remove cost 200 > 400
5/10/5 > 10/10/5

How can jungle be better then plains, and why should adding forest be so cheap?

	31-10-2004 03:51									#110
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quote: I disagree with reducing commerce on mountains/hills, don't see any need for it, espacially since we can't use specialists.

Because the production and more so the mines on hills/mnts is a big enough advantage dont you think?

quote: How can jungle be better then plains,

Its harder to remove and improve jungle than it is plains, ie you cant place a farm on jungle, but you can place any tile imp on plains.

quote: and why should adding forest be so cheap?

Thats kinda what I thought too after playing. What if we make it 400 (and will be 600 after the +50% change)?

	31-10-2004 04:13									#111
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Right you are Maq for the jungle/plains issue, i agree with you 100% now.

Sorry wasn't able to get you on this?

"What if we make it 400 "(and will be 600 after the +50% change)?"

Afcourse this changes look great for a start, we can aways adjust them as we go on.


Thanks for the great work Maq.

	31-10-2004 04:28									#112
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quote: Sorry wasn't able to get you on this? "What if we make it 400 "(and will be 600 after the +50% change)?"

I meant we can increase adding forest cost then from 300 to 600? (it says 200 in the long post I made because that doesnt include the +50% increase we said to do but it is changed right to 300 in the file).

quote: Afcourse this changes look great for a start, we can aways adjust them as we go on.

Absolutely, i only played one game upto Fascism with these terrains so its hard to tell yet but you definitely will get a better chance if you start near forest.

	31-10-2004 04:37									#113
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Because the production and more so the mines on hills/mnts is a big enough advantage dont you think?

I just think science is slow enough as it is, reducing commerce on mtns/hills is too much.

	31-10-2004 04:59									#114
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quote: I just think science is slow enough as it is, reducing commerce on mtns/hills is too much.

I noticed you didnt build any ports in the one-before-last game, once you get enough cities and many commerce improvements science flies along, or you can go for growth and have slow science.

Having 10+ production AND 10 commerce on hills/mnts is a kick in the face while theyre down for someone without hills or mnts.

	31-10-2004 18:34									#115
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These improvements look interesting, just so your aware I imagine they will make the game a lot longer.

I will try out the terrain changes this week.

EPW – re the sci, with the current x3 it goes pretty fast still. I play by maxing as much as possible, I know I had better land than you last game but was still about 30 sci turns ahead of you. Try building more tile imp if you can, I tend to put mostly Trading posts on my second ring and also ports on all coastal tiles. As Maq said sci still goes pretty quick.

See you all at 8.00 (I will be on ICQ from just after 7 if you can make it any earlier that would be good)

PS. Toni, those tanks will just bounce off my Leviathons…….

	31-10-2004 18:35									#116
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Oooh Maq, just thought is it 7pm for us anyway (clocks went back last night)

	31-10-2004 20:57									#117
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clock went back here as well with an 1hr. So its still 8gmt the meeting right?

	01-11-2004 00:05									#118
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EPW, Toni & I were in lobby at 7.00 but coming back in about 40 mins.

	01-11-2004 04:29									#119
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora By the way I dont think you can get modswapper to backup the files infoscreen.ldl and loadsave.ldl from the folder ...\ctp2_data\english\uidata\layouts so make sure you backup these 2 files before you extract the mod.

If you used ModManager instead of ModSwapper then you could get it to back them up and replace them for you (at least in theory ).

	01-11-2004 06:10									#120
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Really? I havent even tried ModManager yet or rather not since a very early beta. Although we're all pretty used to replacing those 2 files now it would be easier.