27-09-2004 01:43									#1
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This is an incomplete map of North America started by Steph that I acquired from Sarsstock to do a near-future North America scenario with. Most terrain is filled out with hills. I need someone skilled at making maps who is familiar with North American terrain to finish it. Could someone please do this for me so I can begin a long-delayed scenario idea? I'd be most obliged!

Attachment: north america.zip
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	27-09-2004 18:47									#2
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I think I can finish that map this week (hopefully).

	27-09-2004 22:54									#3
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I'd greatly appreciate if you could. Thanks a lot! You've been a real help, and not just here.

	01-10-2004 03:18									#4
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Hello again, though we've discussed the idea to great length this is my first time posting on this thread here. Can we agree that those cities I provided would probally be the best for this scenario? I'm surprised that they haven't been in any other scenario's to date.

	01-10-2004 10:52									#5
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I do like those cities you provided a while back (I admit I used some of them in some reduxes of my old scenarios I plan to release as a package, a project of which is the biggest consumer of all those obscure custom flags I've requested from you), though there's a city graphic set from POTUS' 'Island Thunder' that's perfect for Cuba-Florida (it was meant for the Cubans) that, with proper credit given, we should be able to use; it's even isometric. I hope jim is reasonably swift with the map. I think we've got a good working premise to start from, though, from your tales of your hectic schedule, I'll likely end up shouldering the brunt of the nitty-gritty work; but that's okay. Let me know if you have any further additions (or graphics; they're always welcome).

	01-10-2004 11:31									#6
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I had a thought (moving this discussion largely to this thread since my last post at the old one). Vancouver, as a city, should start as a Canadian city, not a Western Separatist one, as they, unlike much of the West, have far more to gain from association with Ottawa, and thus I imagine they'd reject British Columbia's decision to join the separatist movement and hope the CFB there was enough to protect them. Vancouver's naval base, however, would be very valuable to the West (and maybe even the First Nations); it could even be made the Lighthouse wonder to accentuate this importance. This is just a final thought before I turn in for the night (let me know what you think).

	03-10-2004 21:33									#7
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Oh Patine, forgive me but RL working efforts kept me from finishing that map yet I think I will have it ready within the next days ...

	03-10-2004 23:12									#8
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Patine thats a great idea, though I've never been to Canada's pacific coast jewel I've heard its just a fantastic city with the same political feelings you just described. A West Coast port would indeed be very sought after in this kind of conflict.

Where exactly are the first nations civ going to be located? Will they be fighting for an independant Nunuvut in the north or will they be further south in the western provinces?

	04-10-2004 02:27									#9
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@jim panse:
Thanks for giving the map some attention. It's greatly appreciated.

@Sarsstock:
As for the First Nations, I imagine we're looking at one of those scattered civs you sometimes see. They would hold Nunavut fairly strongly (their capital would likely be there), but have small 'cities' scattered across Western Canada (like Hobbema, Lubicon Lake, and Wabasca, to name some Alberta examples; I'd have to look into other Western provinces), and even one or two in the Ontairio-Quebec region (like Oka). This would give them both a significant advantage and disadvantage, as would be expected.

	10-10-2004 12:05									#10
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I'm just bumping this thread to the top, mainly for jim panse and Sarsstock's convienience, but also for anyone else who has ideas for this scenario (see 'Flags Needed...Again,' which I've also bumped up, for most of the lore on the near future North American scen).

	11-10-2004 20:25									#11
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How are you for city designing? I ask because I was wondering if you had any ideas as to what the First Nations city style should look like if you think they deserve their own style?

	12-10-2004 23:51									#12
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I think, actually, they should resemble the 'CIS' style from the cities.gif you sent me some time ago, though maybe have a totem pole instead of a minuret (though Haida in origin, totem poles, like some other one-region-only symbolry like dreamcatchers and medicine bags, have become universal among Native Canadians as symbols; besides, it gives a definite feel, if not literally applying to every city in the civ, and I feel that should be the point of city graphics). I'd also make lower buildings and turn that central castle-like building into a town hall-like building. That's what I see.

	13-10-2004 08:07									#13
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Now what should Canada have in the way of submarines if any? We'd be speculating what kind of subs would be in the navy in a decade. I suppose almost everyone at the forum has heard about the HMCS Chicoutimi and her perilous adventure off the British Isles.

As of now the three remaining subs of her class have been ordered to dock pending the outcome of the investigation. I really doubt they will be serving in 10 years. I hope not at least, one of my best friends is an officer in the navy and aspires to serve on a submarine one day, I hope he gets to but I hope its on a sound ship.

Any thoughts?

And I will try experimenting with those cities and totum poles.

	13-10-2004 13:32									#14
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I'm thinking, on the topic of Canadian submarines, maybe the US will pawn some of the predictedly soon obsolete Los Angeles-class subs on us, which are a bastion of the Cold War. They are nuclear powered, but do not require SLBM's to be an effective vessel. What do you think?

	13-10-2004 18:31									#15
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I don't know about Upholders (the British name for the series of submarines) being replaced by Los Angeles class. It'll depend highly upon whether the fire on HMCS Chicoutimi was the result of a major design flaw in the whole class of submarines, or whether it was a tragic accident. Apparently, the Upholders are nearly undetectable on batteries and make noise comparable with SSNs when snorkeling. However, they are relatively old and there have been problems due to the highly mechanised nature of the submarines (as opposed to personnel being used) and that the engines were originally designed for trains (!). If the Chicoutimi turns out to be an accident, but not the result of a design flaw, then I see no reason why they wouldn't last another 10 years, especially considering the $800m (?) that the Canadians paid.

I'm sure the UK'll sell Canada the soon to be retired Swiftsure SSNs as an alternative to the Los Angeles given that the US tends to be highly secretive of anything it makes even with its NATO allies.

	13-10-2004 20:12									#16
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That certainly sounds like a reasonable premise, vodkakov. Could you post a graphic of a one of these Swiftsures if you wouldn't mind. Thanks!

BTW, did you get my request on the Modern Graphics Showcase?

	14-10-2004 13:59									#17
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Taken from the Royal Navy's website....

Attachment: swift1.jpg
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	14-10-2004 13:59									#18
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...and

Attachment: swift2.jpg
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	14-10-2004 14:00									#19
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...finally...

Attachment: swift3.jpg
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	14-10-2004 14:01									#20
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...and now for some technical data...

The Swiftsure Class Fact File


Swiftsure Class (SSN) Fleet Submarine
Ship Name Pennant No.
Sovereign S108
Superb S109
Sceptre S104
Spartan S105



Swiftsure Class SSN Fleet Submarine
Displacement: 4,900 tonnes (dived)
Length: 82.9 m
Beam: 9.8 m
Draught: 8.5m
Complement: 116
Armament: 5 tubes capable of firing:
Spearfish Torpedoes
RN Sub Harpoon Missiles
Tomahawk Missiles
Sensors: Sonar including Bow, Flank, Active Intercept and Towed Arrays
Attack and Search Periscopes
Collision avoidance radar
Electronic warfare equipment

The key thing to remember is that British submarines have the diving planes attached to the bow of the boat (subs are always called 'boats' btw) and NOT to the coning tower...

	14-10-2004 14:17									#21
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I had a go... it's not very good though

Attachment: swiftsure.gif
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	14-10-2004 14:30									#22
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Thanks for the data and graphics, vodkakov. The sub does look passable; submarine warfare will likely be a small part of the scen anyway. Thanks a lot!

	14-10-2004 17:22									#23
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You're welcome, as you can tell, ships/boats aren't my forte

Last edited by vodkakov on 14-10-2004 at 17:54

	14-10-2004 17:56									#24
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@ Patine: I am deeply sorry for not being able to finish that map now myself. My f***** up real life is consumin my free time at a horrible rate at the moment. I apologise for keeping you waiting for something I can not accomplish before Christmas for sure.

I hope anyone else could/would fill that gap for me. Again, I can only apologise

	14-10-2004 19:33									#25
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@Patine: Does this one look any better? I'm experimenting...

Attachment: swiftsure_a.gif
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	15-10-2004 05:05									#26
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@jim panse: I'm sorry to hear that. I hope someone can finish the map, but so far you're the only taker. I might just have to wait for Christmas. Don't worry, though, I know how that situation feels!

@vodkakov: The second one is a bit sharper, but the first one has more detailed color contrast (in terms of shapes of black at least). I'll have to choose one, I suppose. As author, which is your favorite?

	15-10-2004 15:45									#27
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I'm not really sure, the first one has the better contrast, like you say, but the second looks more like a sub, as they are very dark... I'm not too sure. Part of me reckons I should just copy some sea terrain and use that, as that's all you'd ever see of a sub

	15-10-2004 15:59									#28
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I think, ultimately, I'll go with the second; it does look more like a sub in the end. Thanks for both graphics, though. BTW, know anyone whose good at maps to finish this North America map?

	15-10-2004 16:04									#29
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Thanks, I appreciate the input. BTW do you want a Type 42 Destroyer? I had a play with fairline's amazing AEGIS graphic... I added the radar domes and changed the midships a bit.

Attachment: type42.gif
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	15-10-2004 19:12									#30
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Well I definatly prefer the first submarine posted, and I do love that AEGIS Cruiser. I wonder if it could be manipulated into an Iroquois Class Frigate?

Anyways Patine, I wouldn't worry for now about Steph not being able to finish the map, I say we just work on the units and the icons and cities for now. I'm still tinkering with those city styles, hopefully I will have something good to show ya soon.

Last edited by Sarsstock on 15-10-2004 at 21:11