29-09-2004 02:58									#91
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quote: A more detailed test. http://www.orgburo.com/pofo.php

99% of test takers were less marxist than you.

	29-09-2004 04:21									#92
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With the second test:

(Scores out of 100)
Individual >-> 66 >-> Social
Theist <-< 32 <-< Materialist
Big Government <-< 34 <-< Small Government
National >-> 90 >-> International
Protection >-> 52 >-> Free Trade
Absolute >-> 68 >-> Non-Absolute
Controlled Market <-< 18 <-< Liberal Market
Marxist <-< 42 <-< Non-Marxist

	29-09-2004 04:34									#93
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I was too bloody centrist on the second test -- I got a 70 in favor of Internationalism and an 83 in favor of Free Trade, but every other score was 50 +/- 5. Maybe I should've selected more "strongly (dis)agree" responses.

	29-09-2004 04:36									#94
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quote: Overall, the PoliticsForum quiz considers you a socially-orientated, theist, big-government, nationalist, non-absolutist, liberal-market kind of person, who doesn't sound like a Marxist. These characteristics would put you in the overall category of borderline nationalist. Your natural home at PoliticsForum would be the Nationalism area.

	29-09-2004 04:39									#95
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Some of them bothered me. A good example is the "Guns don't kill people. People kill people." question. With only 2 choices given, I had to go with the pro-gun option as I'm not terribly opposed to the 2nd Amendment but I do think it needs to be revised to modern realities. I refuse to discuss this issue further in this thread, so don't bother.

	29-09-2004 04:41									#96
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quote: Overall, the PoliticsForum quiz considers you a small-government, nationalist, free-trade, kind of person, who doesn't sound like a Marxist. These characteristics would put you in the overall category of libertarian. Your natural home at PoliticsForum would be the Liberalism area.

I guess I don't have serious problems with this second test, although when I looked at my placement on each of the spectrums it seemed to want to place me near the middle on everything again. Maybe I need to completly avoid giving answers other than 'strongly' agree and 'strongly disagree'

	29-09-2004 04:46									#97
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Economic: - 8.00
Social: -6.15

Damn, I'm getting more authoritarian

	29-09-2004 04:58									#98
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Economic: 4.13
Social: -1.95

	29-09-2004 04:59									#99
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quote: Rawls is closer to the classical liberal ideal than people think. For example, he's really hung up on civic rights and limiting government intrusion.

That may be true, but his Theory of Justice turns me off. Remember, I'm still fiscally right (though not that far). His ideas that every policy must be considered on the basis of the lowest member of society is something I don't accept. He thinks if something benefits 99% of people a lot and 1% get a small bit worse, then it is a bad policy. I can't accept his Theory of Justice because of that position (that's not even getting into the flaws in his argument ).

	29-09-2004 05:03									#100
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Economically centre, socially libertarian, as always

Economic: -0.53
Social: -5.15

	29-09-2004 05:08									#101
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quote: His ideas that every policy must be considered on the basis of the lowest member of society is something I don't accept.

That seems to me to ignore all his material on rights in favour of a simplistic utilitarian reading of Rawls.

	29-09-2004 05:08									#102
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quote: Overall, the PoliticsForum quiz considers you an individually-orientated, small-government, free-trade, non-absolutist, kind of person, who doesn't sound like a Marxist. These characteristics would put you in the overall category of libertarian. Your natural home at PoliticsForum would be the Liberalism area.

	29-09-2004 05:14									#103
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quote: Overall, the PoliticsForum quiz considers you a socially-orientated, materialist, big-government, protectionist, non-absolutist, controlled-market kind of person. These characteristics would put you in the overall category of social conservative protectionist with a hint of socialism. Your natural home at PoliticsForum would be the Conservatism area.

Me a conservative and Imran a liberal? What is the world going to?

quote: 0% of test takers were more non-absolutist than you.

	29-09-2004 05:17									#104
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quote: That seems to me to ignore all his material on rights in favour of a simplistic utilitarian reading of Rawls.

Not at all... it's totally anti-utilitarian! The focus is on the one worst off in society instead of a majority of people.

His basic idea of rights comes from his original position and veil of ignorance where no one knows their economic position when they make the agreements to form society. Therefore, Rawls proposes, that any rights are looking toward the least privileged member because in the original position any of them could be that.

He favors rights for the basic social liberty issues (freedom of speech, association). However, it seems in terms of distribution (economics) he focuses on his maximin - maximize the minimum.

Rights come out of the contractarian agreements while in that original position with the veil of ignorance. While he is a liberal, he just isn't one that I accept .

	29-09-2004 05:19									#105
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Overall, the PoliticsForum quiz considers you a socially-orientated, materialist, big-government, internationalist, protectionist, non-absolutist, controlled-market kind of person, who also seems quite Marxist.

These characteristics would put you in the overall category of Marxist. Your natural home at PoliticsForum would be the Communism area.

	29-09-2004 05:22									#106
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quote: Me a conservative and Imran a liberal?

Libertarian... there is a difference .

	29-09-2004 05:22									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui His ideas that every policy must be considered on the basis of the lowest member of society is something I don't accept. He thinks if something benefits 99% of people a lot and 1% get a small bit worse, then it is a bad policy.

Taking the original position wouldn't necessarily lead you to choose an egalitarian economic policy. F'rinstance, in your example, it's possible that a policy that greatly benefits 99% of the populace but slightly hinders 1% of the populace would wind up hindering you in particular, but the odds are a lot better that it would benefit you since the odds are a lot better that you'll be in the 99% group than in the 1% group. At the same time, taking the original position to some extent reduces the risks that a tyranny of the majority will take hold -- f'rinstance, if a policy would slightly benefit 99% of the populace but completely destroy 1% of the populace, then presumably you wouldn't adopt the policy due the disastrous results were you to wind up being in the soon-to-be-annihilated 1% of the populace.

	29-09-2004 05:23									#108
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I don't believe in these things. There's only left and right. Not up and down. You're either down for the cause or your not.

	29-09-2004 05:24									#109
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Libertarian... there is a difference .

Indeed. Libertarians are even worse.

	29-09-2004 05:30									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui He thinks if something benefits 99% of people a lot and 1% get a small bit worse, then it is a bad policy.

This is not correct. You don't understand. It's completely possible that this policy would be accepted by Rawls. All that is required is that agents don't know if they will benefit or pay the cost. If everyone agrees to take the chance than the policy is good, according to Rawls.

	29-09-2004 05:34									#111
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Economic Left/Right: -7.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36

	29-09-2004 05:35									#112
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Economic: - 8.00 Social: -6.15 Damn, I'm getting more authoritarian

You are even more fascist than I am.

	29-09-2004 05:42									#113
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quote: This is not correct. You don't understand. It's completely possible that this policy would be accepted by Rawls.

It is totally inconsistent with his policy of the maximin, so no it most likely would not be accepted by Rawls. Perhaps you are the one who does not understand.

quote: Taking the original position wouldn't necessarily lead you to choose an egalitarian economic policy.

Perhaps not, but Rawls doesn't see it that way. The maximin means you got to maximize the minimum. The one at the bottom is where the focus is to Rawls. I don't think he believes that in the original position that people would vote to reduce the minority's economic power.

	29-09-2004 05:55									#114
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More from Rawls.

Theory of Justice, Chapter 26, Footnote 19 (at the end):

quote: The term "maximin" means the maximum minimorum; and the rule directs our attention to the worst that can happen under any proposed course of action, and to decide in light of that.

I see that as if a proposal makes the 1% worse off, it cannot pass. It'll violate the maximin, which Rawls says is preeminent in the original position.

	29-09-2004 05:57									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: This is not correct. You don't understand. It's completely possible that this policy would be accepted by Rawls. It is totally inconsistent with his policy of the maximin, so no it most likely would not be accepted by Rawls. Perhaps you are the one who does not understand.

You can't possibly believe that he meant absolute maximization of the minimum. Oh, but I forgot that you only see things as absolutes.

Rawls meant that no one would want to risk being some lowly creature that sucks the toe jam out of some King's big toe. He didn't mean that people wouldn't make rational decisions.

	29-09-2004 05:59									#116
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I'm not sure what to make of the fact that the polytubbies that our nation's leaders most resemble would appear to be Albert Speer and Fez.

	29-09-2004 06:12									#117
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quote: You can't possibly believe that he meant absolute maximization of the minimum.

From all of his statements, that is what it seems like. Look at the footnote I quoted. Actually within that footnote there is a numerical example.

quote: He didn't mean that people wouldn't make rational decisions.

To him the rational decision was that people would focus on the minimum in making their decisions.

	29-09-2004 06:29									#118
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What I got last time: 3.0 economic -3.0 libertarian

I'm not bothering to take it again, as the three times I've taken in I've been within something like .01 of those numbers.

	29-09-2004 07:00									#119
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quote: I see that as if a proposal makes the 1% worse off, it cannot pass. It'll violate the maximin, which Rawls says is preeminent in the original position.

Yes, but you have to remember that the material on liberty and the distribution of such rights comes before the material on distributive justice, and all of this comes later, after the material you mention.

	29-09-2004 07:02									#120
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i.e. Rawls is concerned with more than distributing stuff.