29-09-2004 11:55									#151
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According to the PoliticsForum quiz, I'm a Libertarian.

46 out of 100 on a scale of Individual vs Social.
49 out of 100 on a scale of Theist vs Materialist.
61 out of 100 on a scale of Big Government vs Small Government.
86 out of 100 on a scale of Nationalist vs Internationalist.
81 out of 100 on a scale of Protectionist vs Free Trader.
72 out of 100 on a scale of Absolutist vs Non Absolutist.
41 out of 100 on a scale of Controlled Market vs Liberal Market.
49 out of 100 on a scale of Marxist vs Non-Marxist.

	29-09-2004 11:57									#152
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quote: Originally posted by CygnusZ I agree, it's not the greatest test, especially for those of us whom have actually worked on enviornmental policy. Anyway: Economic Left/Right: -3.75 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.44 C'mon, who's the jerkwad that actually feels they should be proud of where they born?

Oh! Oh! Me! ME!!!

	29-09-2004 11:57									#153
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USA!

	29-09-2004 12:00									#154
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Not really... Rawls admits that his whole exercise is highly theoretical contractual exercise.

You see. That means that even he considers his model to be different from the real world. That doesn't mean we can't apply it to the real world were it may fit.

quote: quote: Then you don't agree with the veil of ignorance argument? You're just a straight natural rights person? I don't believe in 'natural' rights. I believe rights arise from governments/societies. I'm a relativist/deconstructionalist, etc.

Ok, sure. Then what rights should people have? How do you determine them?

	29-09-2004 12:04									#155
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Rawls claimed that policies should favour the most disadvantaged. So if that 1% is the most disadvantaged, he wouldn't agree, but if that 1% is the top 1%, Rawls wouldn't have a problem with it.

But the thing is that no one is disadvantaged if everyone has an equal expected pay off. I agree that individuals paying the heavy cost is out, because he argued that people would be adverse to risk.

	29-09-2004 12:14									#156
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Ok, sure. Then what rights should people have? How do you determine them?

Whatever Ted Striker says goes.

	29-09-2004 12:41									#157
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Okay.

I'll wait until people are done to resize the names, because it may get crowded.

	29-09-2004 12:43									#158
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight Individual vs Social 1% were more individual Theist vs Materialist 70% were more theist Big Gov. vs small Gov 73% were more big gov. Nationalist vs Internationalist 92% were more internationalist Protectionist vs Free trader 15% of test takers were more free trade Absolutist vs non Absolutist 0% were more absolutist Controlled Market vs liberal market 4% were more liberal market Marxist vs non Marxist 1% were more non marxist Interestingly they call me a libertarian and say I should go to the liberalism forum. I went there and I didn't agree with any of them. This test

Now that really scares me. Going on the questions that were asked its hard for me to see how someone with that high of an Absolutist score does any of his own thinking whatsoever.

quote: Interestingly they call me a libertarian and say I should go to the liberalism forum. I went there and I didn't agree with any of them.

And he doesn't even know what Liberal means

	29-09-2004 14:31									#159
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious But the thing is that no one is disadvantaged if everyone has an equal expected pay off. I agree that individuals paying the heavy cost is out, because he argued that people would be adverse to risk.

I don't recall Rawls advocating equal pay off.

His assumption is everybody operates off enlightened self-interest.

Suppose the issue at hand is social assistance for the poor. If there are 5 people voting on the matter, with one of them being a billionaire and the other 4 dirt poor. How would you vote if you are one of the 5, but you don't know which one?

	29-09-2004 17:35									#160
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quote: Originally posted by Boshko Now that really scares me. Going on the questions that were asked its hard for me to see how someone with that high of an Absolutist score does any of his own thinking whatsoever. And he doesn't even know what Liberal means

Oh puleez. ML is a class 1 troll.

	29-09-2004 18:24									#161
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quote: Overall, the PoliticsForum quiz considers you a materialist, free-trade, non-absolutist, kind of person, who doesn't sound like a Marxist. These characteristics would put you in the overall category of uncategorisable materialist.

	29-09-2004 18:35									#162
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger A free market is a perfectly competitive market. A market with a monopoly is not free by definition.

From your own quote (emphasis mine):

quote: In the ideal free market, the law of supply and demand predominates, influencing prices toward an equilibrium that balances the demands for the products against the supplies....In this mathematical ideal market, the distribution of products is Pareto optimal...

Just because it's mathematically ideal doesn't mean it's the only way for a free market to function. Monopolies can and do form in a perfectly free market. Believe me, you are off base here - however, if you really want to keep trying, find something that says monopolies are inconsistent with a free market. All your quote is saying is that ideally, everything is in a perfect state of balance and totally ignores any form of reality.

	29-09-2004 18:44									#163
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quote: Overall, the PoliticsForum quiz considers you a materialist, small-government, free-trade, kind of person, who doesn't sound like a Marxist. These characteristics would put you in the overall category of libertarian. Your natural home at PoliticsForum would be the Liberalism area.

quote: You scored 48 out of 100 on a scale of Individual vs Social. 27% of test takers were more individual than you. 71% of test takers were more social than you. You scored 73 out of 100 on a scale of Theist vs Materialist. 74% of test takers were more theist than you. 24% of test takers were more materialist than you. You scored 62 out of 100 on a scale of Big Government vs Small Government. 59% of test takers were more big government than you. 38% of test takers were more small government than you. You scored 56 out of 100 on a scale of Nationalist vs Internationalist. 38% of test takers were more nationalist than you. 60% of test takers were more internationalist than you. You scored 64 out of 100 on a scale of Protectionist vs Free Trader. 69% of test takers were more protectionist than you. 30% of test takers were more pro free trade than you. You scored 59 out of 100 on a scale of Absolutist vs Non Absolutist. 54% of test takers were more absolutist than you. 42% of test takers were more non-absolutist than you. You scored 45 out of 100 on a scale of Controlled Market vs Liberal Market. 68% of test takers were more controlled market thinkers than you. 30% of test takers were more liberal market thinkers than you. You scored 68 out of 100 on a scale of Marxist vs Non-Marxist. 93% of test takers were more Marxist than you. 7% of test takers were more non-Marxist than you.

Much better quiz. Taken it before. Here at 'poly, even.

-Arrian

	29-09-2004 19:13									#164
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Everyone up to Oncle Boris. Sky has to take the test again for me to consider him.

No.

	29-09-2004 19:21									#165
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quote: That means that even he considers his model to be different from the real world. That doesn't mean we can't apply it to the real world were it may fit

I'm sure that he feels that his conclusions should apply to the real world, even though his model isn't . Which is one reason I have certain problems with him. How can we apply a severly controlled theoretical excersize to the real world when, IMO, it doesn't really tell us anything about the real world.

quote: Ok, sure. Then what rights should people have? How do you determine them?

Ted Striker's wish

, No, seriously, the rights of the people are determined by their societies or governments, basically by people in power. Rights arise from the group deciding what needs to be protected.

quote: His assumption is everybody operates off enlightened self-interest. Suppose the issue at hand is social assistance for the poor. If there are 5 people voting on the matter, with one of them being a billionaire and the other 4 dirt poor. How would you vote if you are one of the 5, but you don't know which one?

Indeed that is Rawls' theory on the maximin. If you don't know which one you are, you'll naturally vote for the lowest person having the highest benefits possible.

	29-09-2004 19:45									#166
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Imran,

You seem to be saying that you don't believe in his theory just because of this extreme case though. Is that it?

	29-09-2004 19:50									#167
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: That means that even he considers his model to be different from the real world. That doesn't mean we can't apply it to the real world were it may fit I'm sure that he feels that his conclusions should apply to the real world, even though his model isn't . Which is one reason I have certain problems with him. How can we apply a severly controlled theoretical excersize to the real world when, IMO, it doesn't really tell us anything about the real world.

I think the problem is that you think that there are some theoretical model that are perfect depictions of the real world. There aren't. Rawls' model is no different from any other.

quote: quote: Ok, sure. Then what rights should people have? How do you determine them? Ted Striker's wish , No, seriously, the rights of the people are determined by their societies or governments, basically by people in power. Rights arise from the group deciding what needs to be protected.

What about the minorities? Are they just screwed?

	29-09-2004 19:56									#168
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new questions

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -8.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -1.59

JM

	29-09-2004 20:04									#169
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Ok wait a minute here why am I labeled as an absolutist?

quote: A political theory holding that all power should be vested in one ruler or other authority.

I don't remember seeing any questions on there that would give me a score like that. In fact all the questions asked that apparently pertain to their score on absolutism had to do with science and whether or not there was god. Every time I answered that science can answer everything and that there is no god. So that makes me an absolutist?

	29-09-2004 20:12									#170
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Nope. Absolutism comes from the questions on state power and checks on that power. Science and God was more the other way, IIRC.

	29-09-2004 20:19									#171
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Economic Left/Right: -8.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.48

Hmm....

Two years ago, I believe it was something like -3.26 economically and 1.05 in the social scale....how that has drastically changed.

I dislike the way religious issues are insinuated into these tests. That would be another scale - the philosophical scale (objectivity vs subjectivity, for example) - it doesn't really affect political and social beliefs.

Ie. I have anarchist tendencies, but I am Christian.

Last edited by Natalinasmpf on 29-09-2004 at 20:30

	29-09-2004 20:21									#172
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quote: The absolutist believes that either a divine presence or scientific laws provide absolute truths about the world, which can and should be applied in practise. The non-absolutist may be either a relativist, or simply someone who is more pragmatic.

Nope, it was the questions about god and science. I put stuff like I felt science can explain anything. It was definitely because of this. I also decided to look at the documents section for politicsforum.org and all I see is Soviet Russian ****. The conservative forum is described as "common sense values and duty to the state". Which makes it sound like it's some fascist or communist forum. The liberalism forum which I supposedly fit under is described as "Modern liberalism. Civil rights & liberties, State responsibility to the people (welfare)." Now, I think we all know by now I don't fit the description even remotely of the Liberalism forum. Yet according to the description of the conservative forum you would think you are stepping into Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia. Why do I get the feeling this site is biased? Interesting links they have for news too. This site is definitely biased.

	29-09-2004 20:22									#173
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quote: You seem to be saying that you don't believe in his theory just because of this extreme case though.

Well I don't consider it that extreme to his philosophy, but an integral part. But yes, I don't agree with his theory because I don't agree with the maximin.

quote: I think the problem is that you think that there are some theoretical model that are perfect depictions of the real world. There aren't. Rawls' model is no different from any other.

So then he doesn't want his thoretical conclusions to apply to the real world? What then? Usually, even with theoretical exercises (like, say, the Social Contract), philosophers want to conclusions to apply to the actual world, even if they didn't start from the actual world. You just have to buy into the premise.

quote: What about the minorities? Are they just screwed?

Who says the minorities can't be the power brokers? After all, look at South Africa for the longest time.

But, realistically, minorities without power are screwed in terms of rights and have been since time immemorial. They are extended rights when the people in power feel moral guilt at the way those minorities are treated.

quote: Ok wait a minute here why am I labeled as an absolutist?

You believe things can be answered in an absolute right and wrong sense. You are not a relativist.

	29-09-2004 20:26									#174
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quote: You believe things can be answered in an absolute right and wrong sense. You are not a relativist.

Ok I can go with that.

I love how they list one of their links to the SF Chronicle. Can they link to even more liberal newspapers? I mean the SFC is about as liberal as you can possibly get. And the BBC?

	29-09-2004 20:34									#175
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight Ok wait a minute here why am I labeled as an absolutist? I don't remember seeing any questions on there that would give me a score like that. In fact all the questions asked that apparently pertain to their score on absolutism had to do with science and whether or not there was god. Every time I answered that science can answer everything and that there is no god. So that makes me an absolutist?

quote: Originally posted by Drogue Nope. Absolutism comes from the questions on state power and checks on that power. Science and God was more the other way, IIRC.

Nope, both wrong (AFAIK).

When you say God doesn't exist, that makes you a materialist instead of a theist.

Questions regarding state power and checks on that power had usually relate to Big<->Small Government & Free<->Controlled Market.

Absolutism here has to do whether or not you believe there is one fundamental truth or moral system that exists or can be found, what is your view on moral relativism, etcetera.

Taken together, this means:

If one is eg a christian or muslim fundamentalist, one would probably end up as an absolutist theist.

If one doesn't believe in God, yet still has a rather strong belief in one's moral system as the only correct and superior one, and have an unbreakable belief in science to discover "the truth", he's also an absolutist just like religious extremists are. Only difference is that person is a materialist absolutist instead of a theist absolutist.

However if like me you don't believe in God, and neither have an unbreakable belief in any ideology, moral value or science to solve all the questions and problems in the universe, you're a relativist, and would like me score as a materialist non-absolutist.

Edit: Or read Imran Siddiqui's post for a shorter answer.

	29-09-2004 20:38									#176
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quote: Nope, both wrong (AFAIK). When you say God doesn't exist, that makes you a materialist instead of a theist. Questions regarding state power and checks on that power had usually relate to Big<->Small Government & Free<->Controlled Market. Absolutism here has to do whether or not you believe there is one fundamental truth or moral system that exists or can be found, what is your view on moral relativism, etcetera. Taken together, this means: If one is eg a christian or muslim fundamentalist, one would probably end up as an absolutist theist. If one doesn't believe in God, yet still has a rather strong belief in one's moral system as the only correct and superior one, and have an unbreakable belief in science to discover "the truth", he's also an absolutist just like religious extremists are. Only difference is that person is a materialist absolutist instead of a theist absolutist. However if like me you don't believe in God, and neither have an unbreakable belief in any ideology, moral value or science to solve all the questions and problems in the universe, you're a relativist, and would like me score as a materialist non-absolutist.

Yep you're right. I don't believe in god or Christianity but I do have a very strong and strict moral code. I believe there is an absolute right and wrong and I believe when it comes to people like Muslims we are definitely in the right and they are definitely in the wrong.

	29-09-2004 20:43									#177
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"People like Muslims"

You mean all 1+ billion of them? You're not only an absolutist, you're a bigot. Yay!

-Arrian

	29-09-2004 20:44									#178
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quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf Economic Left/Right: -8.00 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.48 Hmm.... Two years ago, I believe it was something like -3.26 economically and 1.05 in the social scale....how that has drastically changed. I dislike the way religious issues are insinuated into these tests. That would be another scale - the philosophical scale (objectivity vs subjectivity, for example) - it doesn't really affect political and social beliefs. Ie. I have anarchist tendencies, but I am Christian.

Try out that second test link I provided. That adresses the critique you give on the first test.

	29-09-2004 20:46									#179
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian "People like Muslims" You mean all 1+ billion of them? You're not only an absolutist, you're a bigot. Yay! -Arrian

It's a good thing that he's got such a winning personality...

	29-09-2004 20:48									#180
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When you go visit the middle east and convert to Islam and live the way they do then you come talk to me and tell me they are not morally inferior.