29-09-2004 07:21									#121
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quote: Yes, but you have to remember that the material on liberty and the distribution of such rights comes before the material on distributive justice, and all of this comes later, after the material you mention.

I agree with that (it's social liberty, then maximin, then equality of oppertunity, IIRC). But the distribution stuff is why I can't accept him. His liberty stuff is only one part of the issue. It makes him different from, say, Jefferson. I was just saying I'm not a Rawlsian. His liberty parts are good, his distributive parts don't echo with me.

	29-09-2004 07:23									#122
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quote: The maximin means you got to maximize the minimum. The one at the bottom is where the focus is to Rawls. I don't think he believes that in the original position that people would vote to reduce the minority's economic power.

This is somewhat of a problem for Rawls, since focusing on the minimum leads us to ignore differences at the other end when the minimum remains constant.

But I don't see your problem. People in the Classical Liberal tradition of Smith argue for a "rising tide lifts all boats" economics, which is perfectly compatible with Rawls.

Rawls is also clear that the distribution liberty has lexical priority over the more vulgar areas of distribution, and this is something that rights based theorists have pretty much always believed.

	29-09-2004 07:27									#123
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Everyone up to Oncle Boris.

Sky has to take the test again for me to consider him.

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	29-09-2004 07:28									#124
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quote: Rawls is also clear that the distribution liberty has lexical priority over the more vulgar areas of distribution, and this is something that rights based theorists have pretty much always believed.

While true, I prefer a guy that agrees more with me on the vulgar stuff . And I'm not sure if I'm really sure how he gets to where he does is all that sound (the original position / veil of ignorance / contractarian stuff is to contrived, IMO).

	29-09-2004 07:42									#125
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The second test considers me an uncategoriseable Theist.

98% of test takers were more materialist than you.
98% of test takers were more protectionist than you.
97% of test takers were more non-absolutist than you.
96% of test takers were more Marxist than you.

	29-09-2004 07:43									#126
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quote: While true, I prefer a guy that agrees more with me on the vulgar stuff.

But the kind of conservatism you seem to like (Burke) has to do with implementation rather than principles. It is perfectly possible that the world could be such as to allow a free market to be compatible with Rawlsian justice. Indeed, that is what conservatives who appeal to the invisible hand concede when they argue that individual interest should be let run free.


And, according to Ben's graph, I'm the most lefty on Poly.

All those reactionary tory fascists like Chegitz can kiss my butt!

	29-09-2004 07:53									#127
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We need Stalinists. I'm the only member of Authoritarian Left even I barely qualify.

	29-09-2004 08:06									#128
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: You can't possibly believe that he meant absolute maximization of the minimum. From all of his statements, that is what it seems like. Look at the footnote I quoted. Actually within that footnote there is a numerical example.

That's because it's an idealistic model of the real world. You can never take these things to the extremes. That doesn't mean his ideas are invalid.

quote: quote: He didn't mean that people wouldn't make rational decisions. To him the rational decision was that people would focus on the minimum in making their decisions.

I'm certain that Rawls would not think that giving up a benefit for 99% of the population for a small cost to 1% of the poplulation is rational. You don't think it is. I don't think it is. I doubt if very many people think it is.

We have to consider real world policies though? What kind of policies fit this example? Do you have any that come to mind, because I can't think of any.

	29-09-2004 08:10									#129
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: Yes, but you have to remember that the material on liberty and the distribution of such rights comes before the material on distributive justice, and all of this comes later, after the material you mention. I agree with that (it's social liberty, then maximin, then equality of oppertunity, IIRC). But the distribution stuff is why I can't accept him. His liberty stuff is only one part of the issue. It makes him different from, say, Jefferson. I was just saying I'm not a Rawlsian. His liberty parts are good, his distributive parts don't echo with me.

Then you don't agree with the veil of ignorance argument? You're just a straight natural rights person?

	29-09-2004 08:12									#130
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon But I don't see your problem. People in the Classical Liberal tradition of Smith argue for a "rising tide lifts all boats" economics, which is perfectly compatible with Rawls.

Nah, only people who already have money believe this. No one would fall for this crap behind the veil of ignorance.

	29-09-2004 08:37									#131
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Individual vs Social 1% were more individual
Theist vs Materialist 70% were more theist
Big Gov. vs small Gov 73% were more big gov.
Nationalist vs Internationalist 92% were more internationalist
Protectionist vs Free trader 15% of test takers were more free trade
Absolutist vs non Absolutist 0% were more absolutist
Controlled Market vs liberal market 4% were more liberal market
Marxist vs non Marxist 1% were more non marxist

Interestingly they call me a libertarian and say I should go to the liberalism forum. I went there and I didn't agree with any of them. This test

	29-09-2004 08:49									#132
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Overall, the PoliticsForum quiz considers you a big-government, nationalist, kind of person

25% were more individual
19% were more theist
3% were more big gov
4% were more nationalist
60% were more protectionist
24% were more absolutist
68% were more controlled market
36% were more marxist

	29-09-2004 08:59									#133
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight Individual vs Social 1% were more individual Theist vs Materialist 70% were more theist Big Gov. vs small Gov 73% were more big gov. Nationalist vs Internationalist 92% were more internationalist Protectionist vs Free trader 15% of test takers were more free trade Absolutist vs non Absolutist 0% were more absolutist Controlled Market vs liberal market 4% were more liberal market Marxist vs non Marxist 1% were more non marxist Interestingly they call me a libertarian and say I should go to the liberalism forum. I went there and I didn't agree with any of them. This test

OMG A COMMIE U HATE AMERICA GET HIM!!!

	29-09-2004 09:07									#134
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quote: But the kind of conservatism you seem to like (Burke) has to do with implementation rather than principles. It is perfectly possible that the world could be such as to allow a free market to be compatible with Rawlsian justice.

I do realize that Rawls isn't totally against a market. Though he favors more of a socialist market (with his 4 branches of government). I'm not sure I'm with his principles either, however. I'm not that interested in looking at the least advantaged member of society when deciding economic policy. Remember, I'm an evil capitalist .

quote: I'm certain that Rawls would not think that giving up a benefit for 99% of the population for a small cost to 1% of the poplulation is rational.

Perhaps it is just him being idealistic, but I think he may say it would, because the 1% doesn't get worse if you don't do the change.

quote: We have to consider real world policies though

Not really... Rawls admits that his whole exercise is highly theoretical contractual exercise.

quote: Then you don't agree with the veil of ignorance argument? You're just a straight natural rights person?

I don't believe in 'natural' rights. I believe rights arise from governments/societies. I'm a relativist/deconstructionalist, etc.

	29-09-2004 09:09									#135
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How am I a commie? Only 1% are less marxist than me. Only 1% are more individual and only 4% are more liberal market. I'm also very in favor of small gov. I'm about as far from communist as you can get and somehow I'm listed as a liberal? I have to wonder why.

	29-09-2004 09:41									#136
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight How am I a commie? Only 1% are less marxist than me. Only 1% are more individual and only 4% are more liberal market. I'm also very in favor of small gov. I'm about as far from communist as you can get and somehow I'm listed as a liberal? I have to wonder why.

Its teh EVIL GAY COMMIE CONSPIRACY! They want to list you as a liberal so that you can't save America from the inevitable invasion of the secret commiemen living in underground cities across the globe! Run!!!11!!

	29-09-2004 09:56									#137
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quote: How am I a commie? Only 1% are less marxist than me. Only 1% are more individual and only 4% are more liberal market. I'm also very in favor of small gov. I'm about as far from communist as you can get and somehow I'm listed as a liberal? I have to wonder why.

quote: Theist vs Materialist 70% were more theist

---

Tass:

	29-09-2004 10:03									#138
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I forget exactly what my score was last time, but I'm guessing it was about the same...

Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -9.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -9.03

	29-09-2004 10:31									#139
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quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Um, no. Pick up an economics text book and read a bit about free markets and monopolies. I think you might be confusing a free market with a purely competitive market. There is nothing about a free market which precludes monopolies, nor are monopolies inherently bad in a free market.

A free market is a perfectly competitive market. A market with a monopoly is not free by definition.

quote: In the ideal free market, the law of supply and demand predominates, influencing prices toward an equilibrium that balances the demands for the products against the supplies. At these equilibrium prices, the market distributes the products to the purchasers according to each purchaser's use (or utility) for each product and within the relative limits of each buyer's purchasing power. In this mathematical ideal market, the distribution of products is Pareto optimal, meaning that no purchaser could have his or her purchasing limits filled in a way more useful to them without reducing the usefulness of some other purchaser's bundle of products.

	29-09-2004 10:38									#140
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: This is not correct. You don't understand. It's completely possible that this policy would be accepted by Rawls. It is totally inconsistent with his policy of the maximin, so no it most likely would not be accepted by Rawls. Perhaps you are the one who does not understand.

Rawls claimed that policies should favour the most disadvantaged.

So if that 1% is the most disadvantaged, he wouldn't agree, but if that 1% is the top 1%, Rawls wouldn't have a problem with it.

	29-09-2004 10:55									#141
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quote: Overall, the PoliticsForum quiz considers you a socially-orientated, materialist, internationalist, non-absolutist, controlled-market kind of person, who also seems quite Marxist.

Nothing I didn't know

	29-09-2004 11:00									#142
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs Some of them bothered me. A good example is the "Guns don't kill people. People kill people." question. With only 2 choices given, I had to go with the pro-gun option as I'm not terribly opposed to the 2nd Amendment but I do think it needs to be revised to modern realities. I refuse to discuss this issue further in this thread, so don't bother.

You didn't look close enough.

quote: 41. "Guns don't kill people. People kill people." * 950 of 1333 (71%) said True * 383 of 1333 (29%) said False You said xxx. This question did not affect your score. It was included for interest's sake.

Pwned.

	29-09-2004 11:17									#143
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Thanks for making that chart Ben.

	29-09-2004 11:24									#144
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Hmmmm Economic Left/Right: -2.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.51
virtually exactly the same as last time.

quote: Originally posted by Kontiki Just for the hell of it, I went through again and clicked Strongly Agree for every single question. Apparently that gets you: Econ: 0.00 Social: 4.36

Interesting.
I think here we have the root of the test's bias. I think that there are a lot of "here's a really dumbass social conservative statement: agree/disagree" that really biases the test restults quite badly. A number of the social conservate statements were so fringe that it surprises me how anyone (except a few of the usual suspects) could take that quiz and get an authoritarian score.

	29-09-2004 11:30									#145
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The test seems like it is about 10 years old in terms of the issues presented.

	29-09-2004 11:31									#146
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Overall, the PoliticsForum quiz considers you a socially-orientated, theist, big-government, non-absolutist, controlled-market kind of person.

These characteristics would put you in the overall category of borderline social conservative.

	29-09-2004 11:34									#147
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and on the other test

quote: Overall, the PoliticsForum quiz considers you a socially-orientated, materialist, small-government, internationalist, free-trade, non-absolutist, kind of person. These characteristics would put you in the overall category of socialist. Your natural home at PoliticsForum would be the Socialism area.

Good to see a test that recognizes the existance of small-government socialists

As far as the individual breakdown I was at about 80th percentile in everything except Controlled Market vs. Liberal Market and Marxist vs. Non-Marxist were I was virtually right in the middle.

	29-09-2004 11:39									#148
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quote: Thanks for making that chart Ben.

Thank you.

Nice to see someone appreciated it.

Should I make the lettering bigger so that people can see their name more easily?

	29-09-2004 11:44									#149
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If you have time, yeah go for it.

	29-09-2004 11:45									#150
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Economic Left/Right: 0.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 1.44


I don't remember how I was the last time around.