08-12-1999 10:15									#1
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[Edit 3/17/01 by Mark]
The important proceeding discussion to which John alludes is the old Graphics Thread that the BB software ate! A backup copy now graces our web site . It has a lot of good ideas on where we should go for both the map and unit graphics in Clash, although nothing final has been decided on most issues. This current thread will make more sense to you if you at least skim the old Graphics Thread first. If you want to talk about map graphics, this thread is not the right place. You should go to the Map Graphics thread.

Let's get these vital graphics specifications discussions going again!

[/Edit]

Well, lets try this again. I suppose if your new the best bet would be to read the archived thread, and if your not to try and remember all that went before.

I'm moving flat and working double hard for the next couple of weeks, so there won't be much new to look at for that period. So, before I next put pen to paper to draw the new set of TFs I would welcome any and all suggestions. Get them in early to give them the best chance of inclusion in the next set of TF trial graphics.

[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited March 17, 2001).]

	08-12-1999 01:13									#2
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As i posted in the other forum me and rich are working on which cultures should be for each time period. We're basing off the tech model because each diff cultural type will have diff ways at looking at the same tech so that i think it would also be app. to use the same one or similar one we come up with.

	08-12-1999 15:34									#3
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Building from the culture list on the map graphics I think that military graphics will be very different up to the napeoleonic wars, thereafter I would think everything would be pretty much the same. Diplomats and caravans (are we having them?) would be different up to the present day. I think everymodern army has looked the same since the end of the first world war. I'm no historian though, so if anyone thinks that there are distinct differences that I'm not crediting please let me know.

	08-12-1999 19:00									#4
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There ARE some differences between armies today - although I may be biased in that opinion since I wore the uniform of one of the armies and was trained to identify the other guys' uniforms and vehicles There is certainly a difference between western (US and western European) and east-bloc (Soviet-Sino) uniforms and weapons. During WWII, there were noticable differences as well, although it's more a measure of degree than of huge differences (if that sentence makes any sense!) In general, I agree with your statement that there were bigger difference until the late 1800's...I still think that we could design different unit icons through to the present, however, to add some flavor to the game Not 20 types/cultures, initially, though!

	08-12-1999 21:16									#5
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OK Paul, so would it the different icons be based on government type after Napoleon rather than on culture?

	08-12-1999 21:47									#6
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Hmmm....Good question! Need to ponder that one. Anyone else have a take on this?

	09-12-1999 07:23									#7
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I had one idea that I think is decent recently. Specifically, I think our units should have a slight right-left bias to them, basically a facing. This would allow us to show the player, through the facing of the unit, which general direction the TF is heading in. It would also allow to opposing forces (if we can figure out how to put them in the same square) to look confrontational. I don't think that the "facing" should be really strong, just enough to make the direction clear. We can just mirror-image the TF icons on the fly.

	09-12-1999 14:37									#8
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What about North-South movement?

	09-12-1999 17:33									#9
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Well, strictly N or S isn't helped, but 6 outa' 8 ain't bad!

	10-12-1999 04:42									#10
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Mark, I can't help feeling accurate intelligence is pretty important in a war, I wonder if six out of eight is good enough. What if they looked out of the screen and the banners used to denote TF strength trailed in the direction they had come from? All eight directions could be shown that way, although perhaps not at all zoom levels.

	10-12-1999 04:50									#11
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OK, well then I'll await a proposal for something that's not as tacky as an arrow

BTW If you can get me a ship (trireme preferred) that you're not embarassed to show by a week from now it would help me in getting demo 4 ready.

Cya,

Mark

	14-12-1999 10:40									#12
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JohnMcD: Would your friend, John Gooch, like to be made an official Clash member? Also, if he's interested, we could use some help on the interface. Of course, this all depends on how much effort any of us can afford...the unit icons are probably a higher priority than the interface (maybe a goal for that would be Demo 5).

	14-12-1999 00:50									#13
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Stupid question #42,234:

In a game with this time scale, is unit facing really going to be utilized? A unit can change facing in a day, or a week. How long will a 'turn' be?

Unit facing is a tactical thing. The combat in this game seems more 'strategic'.

Without a tactical combat system I don't see unit facing being relevant.

	14-12-1999 01:09									#14
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Hiya:

Facing here is meant as a convenience for the Player. So you don't have to remember "Was I sending this group in the direction of Seville, or Istanbul?"

	14-12-1999 01:27									#15
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F_smith: I've had the same stupid question in the back of mind too...I've been afraid to pose it because of the can of worms that it opens. Now that it's wide open unit facing isn't the only tidbit of information that would be of value to a player. FE unit formation is almost as important as facing direction. In any case, I tend to agree that this is a tactical point, and not a strategic one. I think that a lot of the discussions on trade routes also border on tactical vs. strategic scale, but that's for a different forum! A possible solution would be to indicate the facing and formation (if that's even to be included in the military model) in a separate dialogue for those maniacs that choose to micromanage the military (THAT's one of the few areas that I choose to MM!) Any comments, Mark or John?

	14-12-1999 01:29									#16
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Thanks, Mark:

My mistake. Sorry. Makes sense.

	14-12-1999 01:51									#17
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I had already written my comments above before reading Mark's reply to F_smith...just hadn't hit "reply" right away as I got distracted by something else (work!). Thanks for clarifying that, Mark - and sorry if I confused the issue at all. In any case, my questions regarding additional info to the player may still apply...possibly as part of the optional tactical package. TTFN!

	23-12-1999 03:15									#18
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I'm not too sure about the idea of "power cirles", to me it would be better to do multiple unit icons. If anyone has ever played Lords of the Realm 2 you know what I'm refering to. They used 1 to represent a small army, 2 for medium and 3 for large. We could do the same but take it farther. Based on the number of units you have that would be the icon represented. For example in a large army with 20 archers 30 cavalry and 50 infantry units, whatever units will be, you could show one icon for each type of unit. if you had a large army but only archers and cavalry you could show one of each plus, to indicate large, another of whichever unit you had the most of.

	23-12-1999 03:42									#19
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TK:

This has already been Extensively discussed, and an Idea similar to the one you presented is one of the major contenders. Discussion is in the old graphics thread that got clobbered due to a glitch. It is archived as a link on the web page in the graphics sections IIRC.

But the power circles are Very useful. You can see them in demo 4.

	15-03-2001 06:22									#20
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Wow, dormant for more than a year

We are fortunate enough to now have the interest of a few artists! Sava has requested to know what kind of units we need. Some of this stuff bears further discussion, but just to get a few samples up, I think what I put below is sufficient.

What we need for units to use in demo 5 is:

Horde (mostly warriors)
Phalanx

We already have...

Light Spear (Egyptian style used in demo 4)
Trireme (as used in demo 4)

to fit on a 120x60 isometric tile (see screenshots of 120 pixel map here , and use the Egyptian light Spear men as a size guide.) The graphics format to use for now is gif 89a with the background set as transparent.

Let's get the aesthetic side of Clash going too!

	16-03-2001 04:47									#21
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Well right now are we making temp. designs or are we going to make ones that except for refinements we'll be using in the final version?

	16-03-2001 05:18									#22
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Hi LGJ:

I think we're still experimenting with temp designs. Until we have a stable art team that we think is going to stick around, there's no point in doing final stuff... And for the final quality of Clash we need to do more experimentation and refinement first anyway! If you want to join in, welcome to the party

	16-03-2001 09:19									#23
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Here is a base prototype unit I have made for the phalanx.

Phalanx

Give me suggestions/feedback on what you would like to see the phalanx be. Do you want a more battle like pose? Do you want different colors?

Historically, phalanx divisions wore leather/bronze armor. The more powerful nations (Romans, Egyptians) used bronze shields while the less powerful nations (Germanic tribes) tended to use wooden shields. The blade of the spear that they used were bronze, or other metals depending on the availability of such metals. Phalanx units were used primarily by the Mediterranean powers while the Norse, Germanic, and other tribes used swords.

Also, what would you like the horde unit to look like?

Sava

	16-03-2001 09:22									#24
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let's try that again

Phalanx

	16-03-2001 09:27									#25
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All right, apparently you can't directly view my file because geocities is stupid. I'm going to create a page to showcase the graphic files I create... You can try clicking on the Phalanx link I made, but I don't think its working.

	16-03-2001 09:29									#26
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Cut and paste this link into your browser, it works.
http://www.geocities.com/indigoguy11/phapro.gif

	16-03-2001 17:02									#27
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Hi SoulAssassin, an official welcome to the project!

The guy looks good! I think a more refined version might need a longer spear since phalanx spears are quite long, and possibly some little highlights for glints off armor and things like that. But I think he's quite good, and would like to see more! Let's see what the others think.

BTW, you can edit your posts if it doesn't come out right, which makes things a lot easier to read in the long run. It's the pencil-and-paper icon and the top of the post. Also, I expect if you just put the gif in the page then there would be no problem. It's just because you are trying to access the GIF directly that GeoCities is stupid

I think we should definitely be able to get your work into demo 5, so I'm anxious to see what you're take on a "horde" is!

-Mark

	17-03-2001 01:50									#28
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For tiled graphic icons, count me out. For most other things i can do those.
[This message has been edited by Lord God Jinnai (edited March 16, 2001).]

	17-03-2001 03:35									#29
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Hi SoulAssassin,
I find the phalanx posture good (sentry-like), but I'd like it with a shield and maybe something fancy like greek helmets (horsetails or such).
As for the horde, I propose something like celtic warbands: they were mostly naked but used body paintings to impress opponents, and oiled their hair so that it stood up like points or horns of hair. Weapons should be things like clubs or axes, maybe wooden spears, since these are the most archaic arms.
BTW do you know where I could download a free gif-editor if such a thing exists?

	18-03-2001 00:29									#30
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Hi there!

I've made an attempt for the Horde unit. You can take a look at it here:
www.geocities.com/fiera_com/hordes.html

What do you think? I'd be very glad to help you with the Clash of Civilizations project.