01-11-2001 06:16									#121
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Thanks for the info Shaun. If we do decide that an alpha channel is vital there are java add-ons that allow graphics formats other than gif and jpg. Tiffs have already been heavily discussed earlier in development. But if we stick with the power circles then you already know whose unit is whose and alpha channels seem less important.

	01-11-2001 07:46									#122
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Sorry I haven't showed up before, every time I tried to post the server seemed to be busy...

First of all, great to have you working on the graphic side of Clash, Shaun! Hopefully we'll be able to work faster and better now that you're here. The more talented people working on the art, the better will Clash look in the end.

I like very much what you've done so far. I wouldn't say that the difference of styles is irresolvable. However there are some things I just can't do the way I work, since I don't use Lightwave or any 3D program: providing consistent different orientations for the same figure, at least not without putting lots of hours in.

So if that's something everyone would like to have, perhaps we could work together on each unit. For an eaxample of what I mean, it would be interesting if you could have my warrior or phalanx icon, and "import" it into lightwave, or simply try to draw a similar figure. Then we could work again on the figure you got with Lightwave, giving it the final touches.

I'm not sure I made myself clear enough , but anyway I'd like to try some joint efforts on units before thinking about dividing the graphical work in areas.

Now, to some minor points:

quote: the one caveat to this image is that while it IS a gif it undoubtedly consumes many more colours than will be available which will lose a little subtelty in the final images

I'm not sure but we haven't talked anything about palette limitations. Mark will know better than me, but at least each of my units have been done with independent palettes, and that hasn't been a problem so far.

Regarding the size and scale, I agree with Mark, having smaller horsemen than foot troops looks weird when put together.

Also, Gary, I'd love to see those Osprey books pics. If you like, you can mail them to me at jgv@edinoesis.com

	01-11-2001 08:06									#123
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hi fiera

Ill think more about possible processes for working as a team and try and come up with some ideas when im not at work! what springs to mind as a possibility is something like you doing a first draft, I model that in lightwave and produce first renders, you comment on that, I update it etc till we like it then I pass it to you and you fiddle with the image.. Ill think more later anyway.

on the palette thing.. I just assumed all the graphics would need to be on one palette but if they dont that is great news as it frees things up delightfully.

Shaun

	01-11-2001 16:31									#124
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Gentlemen:

That sounds like a great way to work together on the unit images! And it certainly leaves us with the max flexibility in terms of orientations. I hope it works out .

I really don't know for a fact the java palette limitations with many gifs each with their own palette. I think the only technical limitation we're left with is that for each image. Since there are Plenty of colors to go around at 16k or whatever colors. Anyone know for sure? We could do a test of some sort if needed.

-Mark

	01-11-2001 19:40									#125
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Hi Fiera, Shaun.
I'd like a catapult unit, and/or an archer.
Since I should be providing naval units, and we have a trireme, a galley could be an idea.
I think Mark's idea of a different warrior would be good. That would mean I have to manage image/unit mapping civ-wise, but that is quite easy to do.

	01-11-2001 23:26									#126
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quote: I really don't know for a fact the java palette limitations with many gifs each with their own palette. I think the only technical limitation we're left with is that for each image. Since there are Plenty of colors to go around at 16k or whatever colors. Anyone know for sure? We could do a test of some sort if needed.

Java converts the GIF palette to RGB values on input, so there is no need to worry about palette limitations as there used to be in the bad old days.

quote: Since I should be providing naval units, and we have a trireme, a galley could be an idea.

A trireme is a galley.

A straight transport ship ("round ship") would be nice though. Triremes weren't used for transport.

Cheers

	02-11-2001 01:31									#127
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presumably a ship wouldnt want be to scale with the ground units as that would cover maybe 20 squares

I will have time tonight to fiddle with some things, initially Ill try and do some to a common scale to see how it comes across.

It really IS great news on the palettes, that will allow some subtlety

Shaun

	02-11-2001 01:37									#128
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btw gary, what part of new zealand are you in?

	02-11-2001 02:08									#129
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I only just noticed your address!

You missed the bit where I puzzled Mark by using the expression "go crook at". Nice to have someone else who (presumably) understands proper English.

I am in Palmerston North, but I have been working in Wellington. I am a contractor (well, an unemployed contractor) and could wind up in Auckland. Of course I will need to get a job for that.

Cheers

	02-11-2001 03:02									#130
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yeah I used to be a contractor too till I got to be an unemployed contractor (plenty of those about these days) for a few weeks and took a proper job.

sweet as eh?

Shaun

	04-11-2001 11:57									#131
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Thanks for those pics, Gary. They look great.

BTW, the artist is Angus McBride, isn't he?

quote: Originally posted by shaunfletcher Ill think more about possible processes for working as a team and try and come up with some ideas when im not at work! what springs to mind as a possibility is something like you doing a first draft, I model that in lightwave and produce first renders, you comment on that, I update it etc till we like it then I pass it to you and you fiddle with the image..

Yes, that should work. Let's make our first attempt with a Republican times Roman legion, I'll take a first draft from the pics Gary sent me. The only thing is, should I do it in a reduced size (as the unit icons I made for demo5) or maybe in a bigger size so you can better model it in lightwave?

	04-11-2001 12:58									#132
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any size is fine, Id be using it for reference on mainly the uniform and most importantly the pose. look forward to seeing it!

Shaun

	07-11-2001 02:54									#133
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hi guys.. just letting you know I havent forgotten you, just had a very busy couple of evenings with an urgent graphic for another project.. Ive got a half done archer that ill finish tonight for y'all to have a look at.

also got some ides for terrain tile graphics if anyones interested in having a look?

just for interest, here is what has been occupying my time. we cant use this specific graphic for this project as its going to belong to others, but I can use the basic model and mod it if theres any interest in a 17th-18th century musketeer



Shaun

	07-11-2001 06:30									#134
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Hey Shaun:

Sure, I'd be interested in seeing some ideas, whatever you come up with. That way we can all criticize, er, see and discuss your approaches to the art issues for Clash.

	15-11-2001 22:56									#135
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Anything happening here?

Cheers

	27-11-2001 15:32									#136
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cant believe its three weeks since I posted here. you guys must have thought Id bailed on you. I havent, was just up to eyeballs in work and 'real life' stuff and pretty much lost track of how long it had been.

Ill post before bed something Ive been grabbing bits of time to work on..

for now what are your priorities for the graphics front, I would like to concentrate my efforts on whats important to you

I fiera around at all? he was going to prepare some images for me to work from?

Shaun

	27-11-2001 18:36									#137
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Hi Shaun, good to hear from ya'. I'd already started putting up "All our artists have gone AWOL" posts up! Haven't heard at all from Fiera either. I think we have to just leave him out of the plan until he (hopefully) shows up again.

AFAIK the top priorities are an ancient archer unit icon, and roads. We already have placeholders for both, so taking the time to do reasonably good ones would be worth it. Road graphics will be in eight segments for now, going from the center of the tile to each vertex and edge center. The files can be named NE (for northeast) etc. There has been a fair amount of discussion about how to do roads, and you can find it by searching for road by posts in the art threads.

Glad to have you back!

-Mark

	27-11-2001 18:41									#138
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well just before I go to bed, here is the archer figure as he stands now.. not posed and has no bow as yet but I thought youd like a look!

tomorrow I will finish him up and look into your roads stuff

Shaun

	27-11-2001 21:36									#139
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Very cool so far! My only worry is on a desert tile he'll blend in too much. But the bow will help with that too.

	28-11-2001 02:43									#140
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okay Im thick but I cant find anything actually detailing how the road tile overlays are to be done much discussion but not a definitive statement!.. I presume transparent gifs, but are they to be the same size as a terrain tile but with only a small amount of visible road, or each one smaller?

can you send me the placeholder graphics you have for the road overlay and maybe a basic terrain tile just so I get the sizing etc right?

shaun

	28-11-2001 03:34									#141
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Hey Shaun:

Same size as a tile. I am going to just post a zip with all the tiles plus the road ones (roadNE, etc) here. You can see how the map tiles are used in Demo 5. There may be some wrinkles getting the roads to look good on all terrain images. Just list the issues, and we'll make decisions based on what the problems are. For now I think its adequate for the road segments to look decent on flat ground.

Attachment: all clash tiles nov 27 2001.zip
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

	30-11-2001 10:27									#142
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I just rushed out those road tiles so we would at least have something. I haven't even seen them in action yet.

Shaun: I have a contract in Christchurch until Christmas, so am operating on a laptop - no art tablet, so no more pictures from me. What I REALLY want is a roman merchantman, but it will probably be better if I send you some scanned pictures when I get back home.

Cheers

	02-12-2001 17:02									#143
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not forgotten you guys, just had a busy few days! will have some stuff within 2 days.

Shaun

	08-01-2002 01:19									#144
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Another moribund thread!

I am having a bit of trouble accepting the present system. Each stack of units is represented by the image for the element that has the greatest cumulative attack strength. In the case where the stack has a single unit, the image can change as the unit takes casualties (the heavies get killed until the skirmishers outnumber them). It is disconcerting to see a spearman turn into an archer.

There must be a better way.

Cheers

	08-01-2002 02:18									#145
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We could adopt the system proposed by Richard Bruns in his webpage. It looks reasonable enough.

	08-01-2002 08:47									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Gary Thomas It is disconcerting to see a spearman turn into an archer. There must be a better way.

I think that the archer is a good depiction of what is left of the unit. It tells the player that he had best not let that unit wander around alone or it will get slaughtered. There may be a better way, but what currently happens doesn't really bother me since it reflects 'game reality'. Now there's an oxymoronic term for you

Richard's thing was too busy to contemplate if I'm thinking of the same one as you Axi... The one with little medallions to show unit compositions above a central image is what I'm thinking of.

BTW an aspiring artist just contacted me earlier today. Hopefully he'll show up to Save the Thread...

	08-01-2002 14:10									#147
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Hi !

I guess i'm the "aspiring artist" I'm still trying to catch up on what is done an what needs to be done. shaunfletcher is currently on the team ?

I could start out with "upgrading" the units, but would really like some imput as to what you think is the most pressing.

-Stian-

	21-01-2002 23:27									#148
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Speaking on palletes, I would reccommend that some of the places in the pallete be reserved and used by the game only. The game will ignore any colors in those places, and will replace them with what it wants to use.

In line with my suggestion that "Fuscia" (HTML #FF00FF) and "Neon Green" (HTML #38FE35) be used for transparency, they should probably hold the last 2 positions in the pallette. Or better yet, whatever the last 2 colors in the pallettes are should be used for transparency.

But some other places on the pallette should be used for: Team Colors!

It's the way Civ3 does it, and I think it works REALLY well. Graphics are one thing Civ3 did well...nearly the only thing, but still. Their implementation of the concepts were bad, but the concepts underlying the graphics were actually quite good.

So take for instance the robe color on that spearman/bowman type guy. Instead of doing it in a creamish color, you'd instead do it with "Team Colors". If the team color of your civilization in the game was Yellow, then the robe on the bowman would be Yellow.

This is probably already done to some extent, but I think for the greatest flexibility and bug-freeness that team colors should be dedicated to a certain range of numbers on the pallette.

All other colors not reserved could differ for each and every unit, so no problem there.


And in drawing units the background should be drawn in the dedicated color slot in the pallete for transparency, if this is not already being done. Civ3 also uses gradient transparency and shadowing, which is really quite excellant, but I would think that such a feature wouldn't be needed anytime soon, and thus is good to note but not worth worrying about.



Also, has there been any decisions/models deciding what graphic formats should be used, or what will be currently used?

	21-01-2002 23:34									#149
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quote: Originally posted by Plutarck Also, has there been any decisions/models deciding what graphic formats should be used, or what will be currently used?

So far we are using the transparent gif format (either 87a or 89a, can't remember the number).

	22-01-2002 00:08									#150
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Will that cause any problems in the future due to the whole licensing stunt that's being pulled with .gif files?

Personally I make it a point to avoid using .gif whenever possible (Burn your .Gifs!), but as a short-term thing I don't see a problem with it. But it would be prudent to go ahead and figure out what file type to use, allowing the minimum possible pains for future file-type conversions.

I would propose .png as the logical choice, being a superior format and featuring lossless compression and designed as a Portable Network Graphics format. Perfect for Java, and I believe JIMI comes with classes for manipulating .png graphics.

Here's the official PNG page, which comes with a features list and all kinds of good stuff: http://www.libpng.org/pub/png/



EDIT: And heck, why not go with .MNG for animations? It's the brother of .PNG, and was designed for replacing animated GIFs (and is approved by the W3 organization, if that helps). The W3 has also approved .PNG as the replacement for .jpg and .gif images.

Get on the cutting edge with .PNG and .MNG

Last edited by Plutarck on 22-01-2002 at 00:20