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DinoDoc is offline DinoDoc
Emperor
AECCP loves Democracy
Sep 1999
time: 23:22
  Old Post 04-10-2004 23:06
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The Case for the Empire Put an end to popups!

In honor of the recent release of the Original Trilogy on DVD, I thought I'd post this here:

quote:
STAR WARS RETURNS today with its fifth installment, "Attack of the Clones." There will be talk of the Force and the Dark Side and the epic morality of George Lucas's series. But the truth is that from the beginning, Lucas confused the good guys with the bad. The deep lesson of Star Wars is that the Empire is good.

It's a difficult leap to make--embracing Darth Vader and the Emperor over the plucky and attractive Luke Skywalker and Princess Leia--but a careful examination of the facts, sorted apart from Lucas's off-the-shelf moral cues, makes a quite convincing case.

First, an aside: For the sake of this discussion, I've considered only the history gleaned from the actual Star Wars films, not the Expanded Universe. If you know what the Expanded Universe is and want to argue that no discussion of Star Wars can be complete without considering material outside the canon, that's fine. However, it's always been my view that the comic books and novels largely serve to clean up Lucas's narrative and philosophical messes. Therefore, discussions of intrinsic intent must necessarily revolve around the movies alone. You may disagree, but please don't e-mail me about it.

If you don't know what the Expanded Universe is, well, uh, neither do I.

I. The Problems with the Galactic Republic

At the beginning of the Star Wars saga, the known universe is governed by the Galactic Republic. The Republic is controlled by a Senate, which is, in turn, run by an elected chancellor who's in charge of procedure, but
has little real power.

Scores of thousands of planets are represented in the Galactic Senate, and as we first encounter it, it is sclerotic and ineffectual. The Republic has grown over many millennia to the point where there are so many factions and disparate interests, that it is simply too big to be governable. Even the Republic's staunchest supporters recognize this failing: In "The Phantom Menace," Queen Amidala admits, "It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions." In "Attack of the Clones," young Anakin Skywalker observes that it simply "doesn't work."

The Senate moves so slowly that it is powerless to stop aggression between member states. In "The Phantom Menace" a supra-planetary alliance, the Trade Federation (think of it as OPEC to the Galactic Republic's United Nations), invades a planet and all the Senate can agree to do is call for an investigation.

Like the United Nations, the Republic has no armed forces of its own, but instead relies on a group of warriors, the Jedi knights, to "keep the peace." The Jedi, while autonomous, often work in tandem with the Senate, trying to smooth over quarrels and avoid conflicts. But the Jedi number only in the thousands--they cannot protect everyone.

What's more, it's not clear that they should be "protecting" anyone. The Jedi are Lucas's great heroes, full of Zen wisdom and righteous power. They encourage people to "use the Force"--the mystical energy which is the source of their power--but the truth, revealed in "The Phantom Menace," is that the Force isn't available to the rabble. The Force comes from midi-chlorians, tiny symbiotic organisms in people's blood, like mitochondria. The Force, it turns out, is an inherited, genetic trait. If you don't have the blood, you don't get the Force. Which makes the Jedi not a democratic militia, but a royalist Swiss guard.

And an arrogant royalist Swiss guard, at that. With one or two notable exceptions, the Jedi we meet in Star Wars are full of themselves. They ignore the counsel of others (often with terrible consequences), and seem honestly to believe that they are at the center of the universe. When the chief Jedi record-keeper is asked in "Attack of the Clones" about a planet she has never heard of, she replies that if it's not in the Jedi archives, it doesn't exist. (The planet in question does exist, again, with terrible consequences.)
In "Attack of the Clones," a mysterious figure, Count Dooku, leads a separatist movement of planets that want to secede from the Republic. Dooku promises these confederates smaller government, unlimited free trade, and an "absolute commitment to capitalism." Dooku's motives are suspect--it's not clear whether or not he believes in these causes. However, there's no reason to doubt the motives of the other separatists--they seem genuinely to want to make a fresh start with a government that isn't bloated and dysfunctional.

The Republic, of course, is eager to quash these separatists, but they never make a compelling case--or any case, for that matter--as to why, if they are such a freedom-loving regime, these planets should not be allowed to check out of the Republic and take control of their own destinies.

II. The Empire

We do not yet know the exact how's and why's, but we do know this: At some point between the end of Episode II and the beginning of Episode IV, the Republic is replaced by an Empire. The first hint comes in "Attack of the Clones," when the Senate's Chancellor Palpatine is granted emergency powers to deal with the separatists. It spoils very little to tell you that Palpatine eventually becomes the Emperor. For a time, he keeps the Senate in place, functioning as a rubber-stamp, much like the Roman imperial senate, but a few minutes into Episode IV, we are informed that the he has dissolved the Senate, and that "the last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away."

Lucas wants the Empire to stand for evil, so he tells us that the Emperor and Darth Vader have gone over to the Dark Side and dresses them in black.

But look closer. When Palpatine is still a senator, he says, "The Republic is not what it once was. The Senate is full of greedy, squabbling delegates. There is no interest in the common good." At one point he laments that "the bureaucrats are in charge now."

Palpatine believes that the political order must be manipulated to produce peace and stability. When he mutters, "There is no civility, there is only politics," we see that at heart, he's an esoteric Straussian.

Make no mistake, as emperor, Palpatine is a dictator--but a relatively benign one, like Pinochet. It's a dictatorship people can do business with. They collect taxes and patrol the skies. They try to stop organized crime (in the form of the smuggling rings run by the Hutts). The Empire has virtually no effect on the daily life of the average, law-abiding citizen.

Also, unlike the divine-right Jedi, the Empire is a meritocracy. The Empire runs academies throughout the galaxy (Han Solo begins his career at an Imperial academy), and those who show promise are promoted, often rapidly. In "The Empire Strikes Back" Captain Piett is quickly promoted to admiral when his predecessor "falls down on the job."

And while it's a small point, the Empire's manners and decorum speak well of it. When Darth Vader is forced to employ bounty hunters to track down Han Solo, he refuses to address them by name. Even Boba Fett, the greatest of all trackers, is referred to icily as "bounty hunter." And yet Fett understands the protocol. When he captures Solo, he calls him "Captain Solo." (Whether this is in deference to Han's former rank in the Imperial starfleet, or simply because Han owns and pilots his own ship, we don't know. I suspect it's the former.)

But the most compelling evidence that the Empire isn't evil comes in "The Empire Strikes Back" when Darth Vader is battling Luke Skywalker. After an exhausting fight, Vader is poised to finish Luke off, but he stays his hand. He tries to convert Luke to the Dark Side with this simple plea: "There is no escape. Don't make me destroy you. . . . Join me, and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy." It is here we find the real controlling impulse for the Dark Side and the Empire. The Empire doesn't want slaves or destruction or "evil." It wants order.

None of which is to say that the Empire isn't sometimes brutal. In Episode IV, Imperial stormtroopers kill Luke's aunt and uncle and Grand Moff Tarkin orders the destruction of an entire planet, Alderaan. But viewed in context, these acts are less brutal than they initially appear. Poor Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen reach a grisly end, but only after they aid the rebellion by hiding Luke and harboring two fugitive droids. They aren't given due process, but they are traitors.

The destruction of Alderaan is often cited as ipso facto proof of the Empire's "evilness" because it seems like mass murder--planeticide, even. As Tarkin prepares to fire the Death Star, Princess Leia implores him to spare the planet, saying, "Alderaan is peaceful. We have no weapons." Her plea is important, if true.

But the audience has no reason to believe that Leia is telling the truth. In Episode IV, every bit of information she gives the Empire is willfully untrue. In the opening, she tells Darth Vader that she is on a diplomatic mission of mercy, when in fact she is on a spy mission, trying to deliver schematics of the Death Star to the Rebel Alliance. When asked where the Alliance is headquartered, she lies again.

Leia's lies are perfectly defensible--she thinks she's serving the greater good--but they make her wholly unreliable on the question of whether or not Alderaan really is peaceful and defenseless. If anything, since Leia is a high-ranking member of the rebellion and the princess of Alderaan, it would be reasonable to suspect that Alderaan is a front for Rebel activity or at least home to many more spies and insurgents like Leia.

Whatever the case, the important thing to recognize is that the Empire is not committing random acts of terror. It is engaged in a fight for the survival of its regime against a violent group of rebels who are committed to its destruction.

III. After the Rebellion

As we all know from the final Star Wars installment, "Return of the Jedi," the rebellion is eventually successful. The Emperor is assassinated, Darth Vader abdicates his post and dies, the central governing apparatus of the Empire is destroyed in a spectacular space battle, and the rebels rejoice with their small, annoying Ewok friends. But what happens next?

(There is a raft of literature on this point, but, as I said at the beginning, I'm going to ignore it because it doesn't speak to Lucas's original intent.)

In Episode IV, after Grand Moff Tarkin announces that the Imperial Senate has been abolished, he's asked how the Emperor can possibly hope to keep control of the galaxy. "The regional governors now have direct control over territories," he says. "Fear will keep the local systems in line."

So under Imperial rule, a large group of regional potentates, each with access to a sizable army and star destroyers, runs local affairs. These governors owe their fealty to the Emperor. And once the Emperor is dead, the galaxy will be plunged into chaos.

In all of the time we spend observing the Rebel Alliance, we never hear of their governing strategy or their plans for a post-Imperial universe. All we see are plots and fighting. Their victory over the Empire doesn't liberate the galaxy--it turns the galaxy into Somalia writ large: dominated by local warlords who are answerable to no one.

Which makes the rebels--Lucas's heroes--an unimpressive crew of anarchic royals who wreck the galaxy so that Princess Leia can have her tiara back.

I'll take the Empire.
http://weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/248ipzbt.asp?pg=1

All hail the Empire! Rebel scum!

pchang is offline pchang
King
Cupertino?
Aug 1999
time: 05:22
  Old Post 04-10-2004 23:25
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Some people have WAY too much time on their hands.

Imran Siddiqui is offline Imran Siddiqui

Deity
The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:22
  Old Post 04-10-2004 23:26
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It's old..

And the guy has no clue what he's talking about? So if Alderaan is a home to rebellion guys it is ok to destroy it? And if Owen and Beru is giving refuge to a 'traitor' by not revealing him they should be slaughtered?

This guy is creepy.

And this line ALWAYS gets to me:

quote:
Palpatine is a dictator--but a relatively benign one, like Pinochet.


monkspider is offline monkspider
King
banned
Aug 2001
time: 23:22
  Old Post 04-10-2004 23:30
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Japher is offline Japher
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Jun 2002
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  Old Post 04-10-2004 23:31
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Leia is a woman... that is all we need to know to determine that she is a liar.

GePap is offline GePap
King
of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:22
  Old Post 04-10-2004 23:35
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Bah, I say we kill the counterrevolutionary!

Sprayber is offline Sprayber

Emperor
Dixie
Oct 2000
time: 23:22
  Old Post 04-10-2004 23:35
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The empire would have eventually have settled down to a more resposible form of goverment if vader had been been able to get rid of the emperor.

Ming is offline Ming
Chief Minion

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Mingapulco - CST
Jan 1970
time: 23:22
  Old Post 04-10-2004 23:37 Visit Ming<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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While this is "old"... it's still entertaining. But yes, some people have WAY TOO MUCH spare time on their hands

Japher is offline Japher
Prince
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Jun 2002
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  Old Post 04-10-2004 23:42
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Would it?

I think a running theme is that one is better able to identify and solve a problem if they are not completely absorbed by it. Such as when Obi-wan had to ask a Yoda and a Kid for help.

The Jedi, as advanced problem solvers and negotiators, are required to remove themselves from a "normal" life in what seems to be an attempt to ignore emotions, honing other powers that are normally obscured because of emotions (like a blind person being able to hear better). The Darkside is that same recognition, but also adding in emotions.

If the Darkside were to rule it would be done so with greed and jealousy, governing by emotion and not by fact or sacrifice, because they are completely absorbed with the problem. Darth Vader turns at the end, but turns knowing he will die, or if he lives that he would not, nor would he want to, rule. Thus, you'd have the same anarchy at the end of RotJ... Did Brutus take over Rome?

Absolute Power Corrups Absolutly

Even a Jedi

Kidicious is offline Kidicious
Settler
Diety of Kidiverse
Mar 2003
time: 21:22
  Old Post 05-10-2004 00:00 Visit Kidicious's homepage!
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Eh.... The bar room scene in New Hope was cool.

Comrade Tassadar is offline Comrade Tassadar
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Aug 2005
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  Old Post 05-10-2004 00:03 Visit Comrade Tassadar's homepage!
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LIGHTNING BOLT! LIGHTNING BOLT! LIGHTNING BOLT!

Oops, wrong thread

Tattila the Hun is offline Tattila the Hun
Prince
Tornio
Oct 2002
time: 07:22
  Old Post 05-10-2004 00:13
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Flying as an Imperial in Tie Fighter had much more oomph than a rebel in X Wing. Though you didn't get to fight the rebells all that much...

"Peace and Order"

Kontiki is offline Kontiki
Settler
Canada
Aug 2001
time: 00:22
  Old Post 05-10-2004 00:16
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Princess Leia in the golden bikini. Whatever side she's on is the good one.

GePap is offline GePap
King
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Nov 2001
time: 23:22
  Old Post 05-10-2004 00:22
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Any Empire incapable of beating a bunch of teddy bears simply can't be that good, even at being bad.

Berzerker is offline Berzerker
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topeka, kansas,USA
May 1999
time: 23:22
  Old Post 05-10-2004 00:28
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quote:
Which makes the rebels--Lucas's heroes--an unimpressive crew of anarchic royals who wreck the galaxy so that Princess Leia can have her tiara back.

I'll take the Empire.


You would you neo-con weenie I'll take the anarchists - HOORAY!

quote:
some people have WAY TOO MUCH spare time on their hands


You rang?

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
of Schmooism
Feb 2001
time: 00:22
  Old Post 05-10-2004 00:46
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@ the Empire

Moral Hazard is offline Moral Hazard
King
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Jul 1999
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  Old Post 05-10-2004 01:16
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I am total agreement with this guy. The article isn't the best example. He uses the biased rendition of Lucas. Who I'm sure made up a few facts, and left out some of the atrocities committed by the rebellion. Lucas was nothing more then a rebel apologist.

Remember when they shot that laser at alderan? Would a laser no matter how powerfull destroy a planet? No, unless they were hiding massive amounts of explosives, somewhere in the core. Remember the Lusitania?

Further Evidence:
I experienced Tie Fighter first hand and It was pretty clear that the rebellion was a bunch of terrorist.

KOTOR makes the obvious implication that Republic is enormously corrupt, and that the Jedi Knights are nothing but a bunch of cowards. They were completely afraid to act. The only reason they beat the Sith was that the Sith were insanely stupid. If you have half a brain no matter how evil you are you don't encourage your subbordinates to try and take your place. As time passes corruption has a way of growing, i.e. Rome not dissapating.

Good article by the way

Drachasor is offline Drachasor
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Jun 2004
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  Old Post 05-10-2004 01:18
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Do fascists play Civ, or does Civ make fascists?

I'm not sure

-Drachasor

pchang is offline pchang
King
Cupertino?
Aug 1999
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  Old Post 05-10-2004 01:19
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Only CTP makes fascists

DRoseDARs is offline DRoseDARs

Prince
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Jul 2002
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  Old Post 05-10-2004 01:33
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I've been hearing that this release of the "Original Trilogy" on DVD is in fact NOT the original footage, but is footage Lucas fuxored with in a vain attempt to further legitimize the prequels with actual Star Wars. The ghost of Darth Vader was origianlly played by whoever it was, but on this DVD Lucas replaced him with the new Anakin. I haven't seen this DVD (nor do I plan to) but someone was absolutely fuming over this and other changes.

Drachasor is offline Drachasor
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Jun 2004
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  Old Post 05-10-2004 01:34
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quote:
Originally posted by DRoseDARs
I've been hearing that this release of the "Original Trilogy" on DVD is in fact NOT the original footage, but is footage Lucas fuxored with in a vain attempt to further legitimize the prequels with actual Star Wars. The ghost of Darth Vader was origianlly played by whoever it was, but on this DVD Lucas replaced him with the new Anakin. I haven't seen this DVD (nor do I plan to) but someone was absolutely fuming over this and other changes.


This is true.

They also still don't have the Ewok Music back (not even in the credits). Currrses.

-Drachasor

DRoseDARs is offline DRoseDARs

Prince
"My god, it's full of peas..."
Jul 2002
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Small clarification: I meant to say "...someone on another forum was absolutely fuming..."

Lonestar is offline Lonestar
Prince
AECCP Dark Lord of the Sith
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  Old Post 05-10-2004 01:43 Visit Lonestar's homepage!
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The Empire is prefereable to the cluster**** that came after Palpatine was assasinated. The author of the article was able to accurately predict what would happen just based on A New Hope. The Rebellion rested on it's laurels while the various Moffs and Admirals proceeded to kill each other and commit genocide on scales that would have made Hitler Blush.

Garth Vader is offline Garth Vader
King
Saskatoon, SK, CA
Oct 1999
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  Old Post 05-10-2004 01:57
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I never thought the empire was too bad either. As bad guys go Vader is pretty benign too.

I am also one of those people fuming about the DVD's. I want the originals not the ones Lucas has pissed on.

Barinthus is offline Barinthus
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A Magical Moment...
Jan 2004
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  Old Post 05-10-2004 02:12
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Terrific reading. Perhaps it's old but I never saw it so kudos to DinoDoc for posting it.

Dang now I want to fire up my Star Wars: Rebellion and squash some rebel scum

Verto is offline Verto

King

Mar 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
LIGHTNING BOLT! LIGHTNING BOLT! LIGHTNING BOLT!

Oops, wrong thread


Funniest post in this thread.

Someone dredge up that video.

Space05us is offline Space05us
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Nov 2001
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  Old Post 05-10-2004 02:51
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LIGHTNING BOLT!
The Empire
The Sith
The Jedi
Han Solo
Luke Skywalker
Ewoks
The Rebellion
George Lucas (may he rot in hell)

Dr Strangelove is offline Dr Strangelove
King
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Jan 1970
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  Old Post 05-10-2004 04:04
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Palpatine a Sith lord even at the berginning of episode 1? Was he not in fact in cahoots with the trade federation and the faction which obstructed chancellor Valorans' (sp) attempt to mount a rescue of Naboo? It seems to me that the corruption portrayed at the beginning of the series was the work of infiltrators working for the dark side and not necessarily the by-product of a weak organization.

OTOH a legislature composed of thousands of members would probably not work very well. It would make more sense to organize star systems into "states" which would send their own represntatives to the central legislature.

Provost Harrison is offline Provost Harrison
Emperor
The farce is strong with this one.
Feb 2000
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quote:
Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
And this line ALWAYS gets to me:

quote:
Palpatine is a dictator--but a relatively benign one, like Pinochet.




I must say that this line rattled me as well. Pinochet was a pretty brutal individual...perhaps Palpatine may be 'as benign as Pinochet' in the sense that neither of them are remotely benign.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
Emperor
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Feb 2001
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I wonderd at that point too...

... maybe Fez wrote this?

 
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