06-10-2004 04:01									#91
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It didn't have a centralized military.

	06-10-2004 07:46									#92
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove The Republic didn't have a military because it hadn't needed one for more than a thousand years. What could be sweeter than billions and billions of sentients living together in harmony with no need for weapons? If that's corruption I'll take a double dose of it, thank you! Obviously Palpitine used his dark powers to hide the growing threat. It wasn't the corruption of the Republic that led to its downfall, it was the insidious subversion from within. Oh, and the Jedi Order was nothing but a bunch of lazy lay-abouts. It was their fault too. It was their job to protect the Republic from the dark side and they failed miserably.

The Point is, the security and stability of the Republic rested on one, and only one mechanism. The Jedi Order. In several thousand-odd years there had never been any serious problems until the leader of a major group of "dissidents" was a skilled user of the Force. The Jedi were sent out to "Convince" leaders from backing down. Why do you think the Trade Federation leaders were so anxious about Kenobi and Qui-gon? Because they knew the Jedi could "Force a settlement" if they spoke to them.

Count Dooku wasn't so susceptable. Neither, obviously, was Palaptine. (whose main gift early on seems to be the ability to utilize the inherent sluggishness of the Republican Government)

	06-10-2004 07:53									#93
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar The Point is, the security and stability of the Republic rested on one, and only one mechanism. The Jedi Order. In several thousand-odd years there had never been any serious problems until the leader of a major group of "dissidents" was a skilled user of the Force. The Jedi were sent out to "Convince" leaders from backing down. Why do you think the Trade Federation leaders were so anxious about Kenobi and Qui-gon? Because they knew the Jedi could "Force a settlement" if they spoke to them. Count Dooku wasn't so susceptable. Neither, obviously, was Palaptine. (whose main gift early on seems to be the ability to utilize the inherent sluggishness of the Republican Government)

The problem was Yoda. His mental skills were obviously lacking, or he'd have seen right through Palpitine and Dooku.

	06-10-2004 08:01									#94
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No, it was a problem with the entire system. When Political bodies that are "subordinate" to the Republic reach the point that their militaires are greater than all the Force(pun intended) the Federal Government can bring to bear, then there is something wrong with the system.

What finally killed the Republic was the fact these militaries were being used by Force-users on both sides. This isn't to saw it couldn't have ended the way it did without Force Users leading the Seccesionists, but it made it easier.

	06-10-2004 08:22									#95
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Molestation nothing... I notice how you don't protest that Lucas named "Star Wars" as "Episode IV - A New Hope", which was definetly not in the original movie and was only added after the first movie became a success to indicate that it was part of a bigger story. And you don't even have The Reagan anymore, so you can't talk about 'copyrights' .

Actually Star Wars was titled Episode IV: A New Hope, both when I saw it in 1977 and in the videotape copy I have at home.

	06-10-2004 08:27									#96
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber Actually Star Wars was titled Episode IV: A New Hope, both when I saw it in 1977 and in the videotape copy I have at home.

IMDB disagrees with you:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076759/trivia

quote: The episode number and subtitle "A New Hope" did not originally appear in the film's opening crawl. These were added to the April 10, 1981 re-release to be consistent with those seen in Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back (1980)

	06-10-2004 08:29									#97
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Thank's Imran, I was looking for that. I had also been sure it was in snopes...

	06-10-2004 08:32									#98
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It also shows that the films have been 'changing' since a little bit after they were released .

	06-10-2004 08:33									#99
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber Actually Star Wars was titled Episode IV: A New Hope, both when I saw it in 1977 and in the videotape copy I have at home.

The first version did not have episode IV in the title simply because Lucus had no idication that he would be able to make the other two let alone three prequals. The commercial success was the only thing that made ESB and ROTJ possible. Notice how ANH is the only movie that can stand alone completely. There is a resolution. Lucus allowed vader to escape to make other movies possible but from all that he has said, he never expected Star Wars to be as popular as it was. I'm not exactly sure when he went in and put the episode IV A New Hope in, but the very first definitly did not have it as a title.

	06-10-2004 08:35									#100
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I see Darth Siddiqui beat me to it

	06-10-2004 08:39									#101
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quote: Notice how ANH is the only movie that can stand alone completely.

Yep, that's the main giveaway. Lucas had no idea that Star Wars would ever become popular. No, not as popular as it ended up being, but become popular AT ALL! People watching the trailer a few months earlier saw it as another crappy B-movie coming out. He did leave it open for any potential sequals, but if Star Wars bombed, it would be able to have an ending to the only film.

	06-10-2004 09:43									#102
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This thread has shown conclusively that Imran is a Frenchman and a traitor to the memory of The Reagan!

	06-10-2004 09:49									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber The first version did not have episode IV in the title simply because Lucus had no idication that he would be able to make the other two let alone three prequals. The commercial success was the only thing that made ESB and ROTJ possible. Notice how ANH is the only movie that can stand alone completely. There is a resolution. Lucus allowed vader to escape to make other movies possible but from all that he has said, he never expected Star Wars to be as popular as it was. I'm not exactly sure when he went in and put the episode IV A New Hope in, but the very first definitly did not have it as a title.

Star Wars was written by Lucas when he was in College. By the time that ANH was finally shown to the cast it was clear to Lucas that Star Wars would be a blockbuster and when released it was in fact subtitled Episode IV: A New Hope. the only doubt that Lucas had in making future movies was that in the middle of production he still did not have most of the CGI done. Lucas had to intervene personally to direct the CGI section (leading to the creation of ILM) in order to complete the movie on time.

	06-10-2004 09:56									#104
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Did you even read my post showing you to be wrong?

And actually Harrison Ford had said that he thought the movie would be an utter flop, until he saw the final product when it was actually released.

	06-10-2004 12:10									#105
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar LIGHTNING BOLT! LIGHTNING BOLT! LIGHTNING BOLT! Oops, wrong thread

	06-10-2004 12:11									#106
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All I know is, I enjoyed playing Tie Fighter 10 times more than X Wing, because of the immersion of who I was fighting for.


But then the political test said I was a fascist and a national socialist so I could see why the empire is so appealing to me.

	06-10-2004 12:16									#107
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber I see Darth Siddiqui beat me to it

Darth Siddiqui

	06-10-2004 17:14									#108
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quote: Originally posted by Lonestar No, it was a problem with the entire system. When Political bodies that are "subordinate" to the Republic reach the point that their militaires are greater than all the Force(pun intended) the Federal Government can bring to bear, then there is something wrong with the system. What finally killed the Republic was the fact these militaries were being used by Force-users on both sides. This isn't to saw it couldn't have ended the way it did without Force Users leading the Seccesionists, but it made it easier.

Yes, but the well armed subordinate body was under the direction of a supernatural entity. You can hardly expect mere mortals to be able to cope with a supernatural entity. Can you think of some other instance in which mere mortals have fought off supernatural beings? The problem with the Republic was that its own supernatural entities, the Jedi Order, were too crusty for their own good. Unless you can find some instance in which the Jedi were receiving bribes that can't be called corruption. It can be called degeneracy, yes, but not corruption. It would be more accurate to say that the Republic due to degeneration. A key example would be Yoda.

	06-10-2004 17:34									#109
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The opening article reminds me of the storyline in Angel that I saw just wrapped up last night. A divine being called Jasmine was conquering Earth through peace and love (sickening), but she was taking away everyone's free will, and eating some of her followers. Angel decided she had to die so we could regain our free will- and instantly LA becomes a place of fear and violence where it had been harmonious under Jasmine. I think I agree with that.

	06-10-2004 22:32									#110
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber Star Wars was written by Lucas when he was in College. By the time that ANH was finally shown to the cast it was clear to Lucas that Star Wars would be a blockbuster and when released it was in fact subtitled Episode IV: A New Hope. the only doubt that Lucas had in making future movies was that in the middle of production he still did not have most of the CGI done. Lucas had to intervene personally to direct the CGI section (leading to the creation of ILM) in order to complete the movie on time.

The GGI stuff was only the tip of the problems Lucus had (most of the special effects wasn't completed even after shootiing ended) The executives had threatened to pull the plug on the movie before shooting was actually done. Lucas was given a week or two (before the next board meeting) to get all his shooting done. He had to split up into three different teams. The executives hated it, most of the crew made fun of the movie throughout production, and the cast had absoultely no idea what was being accomplished until the day they saw it for the first time. I don't know what movie you are talking about but Lucus was not at all optimistic about how poeple would react to the movie. All of this is what Lucus himself has said. I would think he would know about such things more than you or I.

I don't know if you have the DVD's that were recently released but you should try and watch the Empire of Dreams feature and see what the man actually has to say about it before making up a rosey portrait of the past.

	07-10-2004 01:18									#111
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We can't really be sure what life in the Republic or the Empire is really like for the common man. The movies primarily show the rich and powerful. Very little common man suffering. By Neo-con standards Skywalker and Company are all terrorists and the Empire has the right to defend itself. Everytime. Other than the arguable terrorists few people have any of what we consider civil and human rights violated. With the exception of slavery which seems to be legal in the republic and empire.
However, Palpatine is obviously a corrupt figure. That does not mean that he took power out of selfishness or greed. How far does law and order go before it becomes oppression?
The main problem with the whole story is that the character are so shallow that we can only determine that Palpatine is evil so the Empire must be evil. Huh?

	07-10-2004 02:37									#112
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In the book series they fluffed up Palpatine's evil by claiming that he was a pro-human chauvinist bent upon ther subjugation and even eradication of the non-human sentient races.

The only planet he managed to eradicate was inhabited by humans. Obviously the empire wasn't all that efficient.

	07-10-2004 04:54									#113
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quote: most of the crew made fun of the movie throughout production

Yep, and especially the Brits in the cast and crew thought it'd be a monumental flop.

quote: Neo-con standards Skywalker and Company are all terrorists and the Empire has the right to defend itself.

Aroo? By Neo-Con standards the Empire is against everything they want (ie, spreading democracy by force).

quote: The main problem with the whole story is that the character are so shallow that we can only determine that Palpatine is evil so the Empire must be evil. Huh?

I'd think destroying entire planets without any consideration as to the people living there is kind of evil outside of the Emperor . That and abolishing the Imperial Senate and letting local warlords rule by fiat... where fear will keep the people in line.

If you don't see that as evil, I'm scared for you.

	07-10-2004 08:06									#114
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quote: Originally posted by Ming While this is "old"... it's still entertaining. But yes, some people have WAY TOO MUCH spare time on their hands

Says the man willing to babysit computer geeks discussing politics.

	07-10-2004 10:31									#115
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber when released it was in fact subtitled Episode IV: A New Hope.

Back in the 70s, movies used to be released in smaller markets before going nationwide. I happened to live in one of those markets, Lincoln, NE, when Star Wars first came out. To me, ANH will always be Star Wars. In the book version that came out in the 70s it was Star Wars.

It didn't become ANH until the rerelease in the 90s. When I saw it then I was like, what the hell is this ANH ****!?!

As far as I'm concerned, the movies are titled thusly.
Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
Revenge of the Sith
Star Wars
The Empire Strikes Back and
Return of the Jedi

	07-10-2004 17:02									#116
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quote: Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous Says the man willing to babysit computer geeks discussing politics.

	07-10-2004 19:23									#117
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara It didn't become ANH until the rerelease in the 90s. When I saw it then I was like, what the hell is this ANH ****!?!

It's ANH in my VHS trilogy, which predates the rereleases (circa 1992 when I got it) and shows the movies in their original form, complete with Han shooting first and no Jabba at Mos Eisley scene.

	07-10-2004 19:41									#118
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Aroo? By Neo-Con standards the Empire is against everything they want (ie, spreading democracy by force). I'd think destroying entire planets without any consideration as to the people living there is kind of evil outside of the Emperor . That and abolishing the Imperial Senate and letting local warlords rule by fiat... where fear will keep the people in line. If you don't see that as evil, I'm scared for you.

Neo-cons don't necessarily believe in spreading democracy by force. They believe in spreading American dominance by force.

It's already been pointed out that it's not apparent what level of resistance to the empire was on that planet.

By your measure, the U.S. would be evil because we nuked Japanese cities and firebombed German ones.

By my measure the Republic and Empire could both be considered evil because slavery was legal. I feel that slavery is a greater crime than abolishing the senate. It can be argued that slavery was a catalyst for Anakin turning to the darkside.

Going back to Neo-cons what do you think they are doing if not attempting to rule by fear. Prepare to be shocked and awed.

	07-10-2004 19:49									#119
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The Outer Rim where Tatooine is located was beyond the authority of the Republic, Pax.

	07-10-2004 19:55									#120
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quote: Originally posted by Pax Going back to Neo-cons what do you think they are doing if not attempting to rule by fear. Prepare to be shocked and awed.

shock and awe was a military strategy, not a political one. It would continue to be US MILITARY doctrine even if we have a govt that doesnt use the military in the situations where the neocons would.