07-10-2004 19:59									#121
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

http://www.jdedman.com/sw-civilwar.htm

	07-10-2004 20:22									#122
	Tired of ads?

quote: Neo-cons don't necessarily believe in spreading democracy by force. They believe in spreading American dominance by force.

You obviously have no clue what neo-conservatism is, even though we've tried to explain it to ignorant people such as yourself .

All they are liberals (in the IR sense) that uses force to accomplish the goals of spreading democratic regimes.

quote: By your measure, the U.S. would be evil because we nuked Japanese cities and firebombed German ones.

Strawman alert. We nuked CITIES, not wiped the entire country from existance. If if we capsized Japan, then we would be pretty damned evil.

	07-10-2004 20:38									#123
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

http://www.jdedman.com/sw-civilwar.htm

On the scale of the Empire a city would be equal to or smaller than a planet.

I am aware of the goals of the project for a new american century. I get my viewpoint from what I gathered reading documents from, on, or about the thinktank.

	07-10-2004 22:06									#124
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

heres a link, judge for yourselfhttp://www.newamericancentury.org/globalissues.htm

	08-10-2004 00:06									#125
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I've already been there and don't want to go again.

	08-10-2004 02:57									#126
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: The episode number and subtitle "A New Hope" did not originally appear in the film's opening crawl. These were added to the April 10, 1981 re-release to be consistent with those seen in Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back (1980)

http://www.brian-oshaughnessy.com/scifi/star-wars.html

	08-10-2004 03:11									#127
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: On the scale of the Empire a city would be equal to or smaller than a planet.

So are you saying that nuking the same sized city in the US is better than nuking that sized city in Luxembourg, because of the scale of the US?

That's just silly. Btw, there are people living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki today. I doub that even a million years after the blast, anyone would be living on Alderaan .

	08-10-2004 03:32									#128
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

The empire had a "thousand thousand" inhabited systems, most with multiple planets, under its juristiction. And it should be remembered that the Empire did not control all the galaxy.

Alderran, which wasn't even in the core so not one of the most populated worlds, would be more like a small village in Eastern China. Its importantace was souly due to the political savvy of Bale Organa, a famous politician. Similar to Naboo, just another back water world with a few famous politicians.

The attrocity of Alderaan is equivalant to a soldier killing A civilain unjustly in our world taking scale into account. Wrong, yes, but hardly damning by any means. Tell me one political entity on out planet who hasn't had the same happen over and over. Plus, as has been pointed out, it was a time of war.

Now since the Rebellion has all the trapping of a Galactic Al Queda, why do we not see the most certainly present acts of terrorism against the innocent?

Because the movies are made up of excerts from GALACTIC CNN, I want to see the GALACTIC FOX NEWS version, and then the GLACTIC CSPANN version for the truth.

	08-10-2004 03:39									#129
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Galactic al-Qaeda? In which episode do the Rebellion soldiers resort to suicide bombing? In which episode do they commit atrocities? In which episode do they behead hostages? In which episode do they demand that the galaxy convert to their religion?

	08-10-2004 04:00									#130
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: The attrocity of Alderaan is equivalant to a soldier killing A civilain unjustly in our world taking scale into account. Wrong, yes, but hardly damning by any means.

Hardly damning? To use your solder-civilian analogy, it's like the government ordered the soldier to kill the unarmed civilian.

Secondly, the analogy doesn't hold. Just because China has a 1 billion+ people doesn't mean that killing 1 million Chinese citizens is something 'better' than killing 1 million Japanese citizens because China has more to lose.

I'm sure Alderaan wasn't populated by one person. You have to take the real number of people killed, not proportional to attach the 'evil' label. The proportional argument is somewhat of an evil justification .

quote: Now since the Rebellion has all the trapping of a Galactic Al Queda

Actually, I'd say the Rebellion is more like the American revolutionaries.

	08-10-2004 04:01									#131
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Galactic al-Qaeda? In which episode do the Rebellion soldiers resort to suicide bombing? In which episode do they commit atrocities? In which episode do they behead hostages? In which episode do they demand that the galaxy convert to their religion?

Use the force

	08-10-2004 05:04									#132
	Increase Your PM Length

I am reminded of an Article by David Brin that argued Lucas was Ant-Democratic for contantly displaying the old Republic as this inept corupted bloated organization being swept away by a Ceasar like "Emperor". That and the whole mess about the force be from Mitocondra and your just "born" with it which strongly contrasts with the very universal force depicted in ANH. Its all a bunch of Platonic thinking aka "the REAL world that you cant see" all this stuff makes for realy good achetypal theather but is realy not how the world works, mearly how most people wished it worked.

Brin contrasts StarWars with StarTrek (we could probably start a whole new poll on which is better if people are inclined to open up that can of worms). Here is the article

http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/fea...6/15/brin_main/

	08-10-2004 06:39									#133
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Moral Hazard Remember when they shot that laser at alderan? Would a laser no matter how powerfull destroy a planet? No, unless they were hiding massive amounts of explosives, somewhere in the core. Remember the Lusitania?

what about Lusitania?


and Good Thread. and Good Links too. (especially that CW-SW-comparison)

	08-10-2004 07:53									#134
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: The attrocity of Alderaan is equivalant to a soldier killing A civilain unjustly in our world taking scale into account. Wrong, yes, but hardly damning by any means. Hardly damning? To use your solder-civilian analogy, it's like the government ordered the soldier to kill the unarmed civilian. Secondly, the analogy doesn't hold. Just because China has a 1 billion+ people doesn't mean that killing 1 million Chinese citizens is something 'better' than killing 1 million Japanese citizens because China has more to lose. I'm sure Alderaan wasn't populated by one person. You have to take the real number of people killed, not proportional to attach the 'evil' label. The proportional argument is somewhat of an evil justification . quote: Now since the Rebellion has all the trapping of a Galactic Al Queda Actually, I'd say the Rebellion is more like the American revolutionaries.

Bombings of CIVILIAN population centers in Germany and Japan was approved by the U.S. government. The U.S. government also authorized burning down my home city. The idiea behind the U.S. targeting civilians was to win the war. Your statements seem to point that there is some magic number of mass civilian casualties that is allowable. The point I stand by is that a precedent of strategic bombing and destruction has been established and has been going on since Carthage. The destruction of one planet holds no comparison to the destruction of whole cities, and cultures that happens here on this planet.

Once again, by Neo-con standards the American Revolutionaries would have been classified as terrorists who hate freedom and are jealous of the British way of life.

	08-10-2004 07:56									#135
	Tired of ads?

And to think I watched the movie to be entertained. I'm so ashamed

	08-10-2004 08:41									#136
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

That is the point, you can't have a revolutionary rebellion without the innocent blood on your hands that goes with it. The Rebellion was a full scale guerrilla war against a government power, and there is no reason to assume that it would not have the same characteristics of every other guerrilla war of the same sort here. We happen to see the story told from the Rebel point of view, and furthermore don't see the day to day operation of either side.

So if some here can make the assumption that the Empire is a genocidal and evil entity because of the characteristics of some dictators here on earth, I extend the same assumption to the Rebels.

And no, scale in death matters greatly. The several billion deaths of Alderran are nothing in a universe of a trillion trillion soles. In fact, death on that scale is by no means rare in that universe, the Empire iteself has used more than a few Base Nine Zero (think thats it) orders it day.

Do you think we don't use scale in China, want to tell me why 200 million deaths under the communists raises nobodies eye brow?

You are operating under archaic, sublight speed philosophy that the denizens of the galactic republic and especially empire abandond thousands of years ago. Before a long time ago of course

	08-10-2004 08:45									#137
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Patroklos,
I believe that we are on the same side of this discussion. Maybe I worded my response in a way that made you think differently. My comments were directed at Imran

	08-10-2004 08:46									#138
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Pax,

Not direceted at you, just got back into the discussion late

	08-10-2004 08:52									#139
	Get a bigger avatar today!

RANDAL
Now the first one they built was
completed and fully operational
before the Rebels destroyed it.

DANTE
Luke blew it up. Give credit where
it's due.

RANDAL
And the second one was still being
built when they blew it up.

DANTE
Compliments of Lando Calrissian.

RANDAL
Something just never sat right with
me the second time they destroyed
it. I could never put my finger on
it-something just wasn't right.

DANTE
And you figured it out?

RANDAL
Well, the thing is, the first Death
Star was manned by the Imperial
army-storm troopers, dignitaries-
the only people onboard were
Imperials.

DANTE
Basically.

RANDAL
So when they blew it up, no prob.
Evil is punished.

DANTE
And the second time around...?

49.


RANDAL
The second time around, it wasn't
even finished yet. They were still
under construction.

DANTE
So?

RANDAL
A construction job of that magnitude
would require a helluva lot more
manpower than the Imperial army had
to offer. I'll bet there were
independent contractors working on
that thing: plumbers, aluminum
siders, roofers.

DANTE
Not just Imperials, is what you're
getting at.

RANDAL
Exactly. In order to get it built
quickly and quietly they'd hire
anybody who could do the job. Do
you think the average storm trooper
knows how to install a toilet main?
All they know is killing and white
uniforms.

DANTE
All right, so even if independent
contractors are working on the
Death Star, why are you uneasy with
its destruction?

RANDAL
All those innocent contractors
hired to do a job were killed-
casualties of a war they had
nothing to do with.
(notices Dante's confusion)
All right, look-you're a roofer,
and some juicy government contract
comes your way; you got the wife
and kids and the two-story in
suburbia-this is a government
contract, which means all sorts of
benefits. All of a sudden these
left-wing militants blast you with
lasers and wipe out everyone within
a three-mile radius.
(MORE)

50.


RANDAL (CONT'D)
You didn't ask for that. You have
no personal politics. You're just
trying to scrape out a living.

	08-10-2004 09:02									#140
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: The idiea behind the U.S. targeting civilians was to win the war.

Was Alderaan officially a part of the rebellion? It wasn't. It'd be like nuking the crap out of Syria because some terrorists may be from there. This wasn't a total war, but a speculation that some rebels came from Alderaan without any proof.

quote: Once again, by Neo-con standards the American Revolutionaries would have been classified as terrorists who hate freedom and are jealous of the British way of life.

You show your ignorance with every post. Neo Conservatism is about spreading democracy, so they'd praise France's actions in helping to overthrow a monarchical regime in the colonies, but at the same time want the French monarchy overthrown.

Perhaps you should stop speaking about neo-conservatism since you don't know your head from your ass about it.

	08-10-2004 19:12									#141
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui quote: The idiea behind the U.S. targeting civilians was to win the war. Was Alderaan officially a part of the rebellion? It wasn't. It'd be like nuking the crap out of Syria because some terrorists may be from there. This wasn't a total war, but a speculation that some rebels came from Alderaan without any proof. quote: Once again, by Neo-con standards the American Revolutionaries would have been classified as terrorists who hate freedom and are jealous of the British way of life. You show your ignorance with every post. Neo Conservatism is about spreading democracy, so they'd praise France's actions in helping to overthrow a monarchical regime in the colonies, but at the same time want the French monarchy overthrown. Perhaps you should stop speaking about neo-conservatism since you don't know your head from your ass about it.

Neo-conservatives support allied countries conducting "pre-emptive" strikes in other nations sovereign territory. Like for example, attacks on Syrian soil. Thanks for proving my point.

Neo-conservatives also ally themselves with non-democratic countries like Russia and Saudi Arabia proving they could give a **** about democracy. The important thing is the dominance of the U.S. for them. Thus the name project for a new AMERICAN CENTURY.

You seem to believe strongly in the Neo-con message but very little for the founding principles of American Society. Specifically freedom of speech and avoiding entangling alliances.

	08-10-2004 19:16									#142
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Pax Bombings of CIVILIAN population centers in Germany and Japan was approved by the U.S. government. The U.S. government also authorized burning down my home city. The idiea behind the U.S. targeting civilians was to win the war.

the US strategic bombing campaign in Germany targeted factories. Innaccuracy of bombing at the time meant that residential areas were also hit. There is at least one memo at the time indicating that Bomber Harris of the RAF (BRITAIN) approved of civilian deaths - but the air campaign was NOT focused on targets other than factories, etc. Hiroshima might be a better analogy.

Of course all this happened after a war that went on for years, after rising civilian casualties on both sides - after what Germany had done in Russia and elsewhere (not to mention the Jews) and after what Japan had done in China, people were pretty morally numb.

Theres nothing in ANH that indicates such a level of atrocities by the rebellion.


But if you want to use this thread to rant about how evil the US is, feel free. I can well see why you wouldnt like PNAC.

	08-10-2004 19:16									#143
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It's a liberal foreign policy, Pax. That's all it is. However based on the content of both of your posts, I think he's a little more versed in it than you seem to be.

	08-10-2004 19:17									#144
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Pax Neo-conservatives also ally themselves with non-democratic countries like Russia and Saudi Arabia proving they could give a **** about democracy.

You obviously havent looked very carefully at the PNAC site, certainly not at the articles about Russia and Russian democracy.

You also havent talked with Serb (our local pro-Putin Russian poster) lately.


http://www.newamericancentury.org/putin-20040915.htm

	08-10-2004 19:21									#145
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Neo-conservatives support allied countries conducting "pre-emptive" strikes in other nations sovereign territory.

If that is necessary to foster democracy then yes.

quote: Neo-conservatives also ally themselves with non-democratic countries like Russia and Saudi Arabia proving they could give a **** about democracy. The important thing is the dominance of the U.S. for them.

Which neo-conservative? Bush?!

Sorry, neo-conservativism is based on spreading democracy by force, not through international organizations like run of the mill liberals support. It's been called 'Hard Wilsonianism'.

As Irving Kristol (one of the original neoconservatives) said a neoconservative is a 'liberal mugged by reality'.

The 'dominance of the US' is utterly silly comment, because neoconservatives are NOT realists and thus do not believe in a foriegn policy based on the interests of the country.

quote: You seem to believe strongly in the Neo-con message but very little for the founding principles of American Society. Specifically freedom of speech and avoiding entangling alliances.

Wha? How does free speech get stifled by aggressively trying to promote democracy and free trade in the world?

	08-10-2004 19:24									#146
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui The 'dominance of the US' is utterly silly comment, because neoconservatives are NOT realists and thus do not believe in a foriegn policy based on the interests of the country.

Actually they believe that democracy promotion IS in Americas interests. They dont agree that their position is not "realist". You may not agree with this, and many political thinkers, foreign policy experts etc dont, but PNAC certainly does.

	08-10-2004 19:30									#147
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

1. I don't hate the U.S. or think it's evil. It's just facts.
2. I respect your opinion Dino but my point of view is based on reading the news, history and going to the website. It's not party rhetoric, since, I'm not really a democrat.
3. I am an anti-imperialist and based on the record PNAC promotes the idea of an american empire that cares little for anything other than maintaining american dominance.
4. As George Barnard Shaw once wrote in a play. In order for Great Britain to be the most powerful country in the world they just have to maintain the status qou. This holds true for the U.S. Destabilizing countries and causing confusion across the globe will maintain american power.

	08-10-2004 19:35									#148
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Imran isn't defending PNAC. Now if you have some knowledge of what a Neo-con is that doesn't stem from a single website please present it for all to see because I'm somewhat interested in this debate.

	08-10-2004 19:37									#149
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Actually they believe that democracy promotion IS in Americas interests.

Whether it is or isn't is not the issue. Neo-conservatives do not care about 'interests'. That is realist talk. Neo-cons are liberals in the IR scheme.

	08-10-2004 19:37									#150
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Pax

quote: 1. I don't hate the U.S. or think it's evil. It's just facts. 2. I respect your opinion Dino but my point of view is based on reading the news, history and going to the website.

But not reading it carefully, since you got their opinion on Russia wrong by 180 degrees.

quote: It's not party rhetoric, since, I'm not really a democrat. 3. I am an anti-imperialist and based on the record PNAC promotes the idea of an american empire that cares little for anything other than maintaining american dominance.

thats NOT whats on their website.

quote: 4. As George Barnard Shaw once wrote in a play. In order for Great Britain to be the most powerful country in the world they just have to maintain the status qou. This holds true for the U.S. Destabilizing countries and causing confusion across the globe will maintain american power.

Causing confusion and instability maintains the status quo? Now youve got ME confused.