06-10-2004 23:11									#31
	Support Apolyton

(laugh)

I have no idea how you can type all that out that fast. There is only a few minutes between our posts.

There is no way I'll be able to answer all that for a while.

I just threw something together as quick as I could before, cause I saw you were on line.

Your in charge of diplomacy buddy. Do what you feel is best.


And, like I said, there are "etc.'s" I had put up there before. I didn't take the time to explain a whole deal cause I was trying to type fast. I never reveal my positions of strength in negotiations for technology, intel, etc. Unless I have some sort of pact and/or understanding/entente/agreement...

Edit: Don't wait for me. I'm inbetween episodes of real life at the moment. Post (do) what you feel is best. I'll type some more later...

Last edited by KrysiasKrusader on 06-10-2004 at 23:44

	06-10-2004 23:44									#32
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I like this approach

(btw, I don't think "Lady Skye" is either Darsnan or Hydro - the language is a bit too imprecise for them, as if Englisg=h may not be their mother tongue)

G.

	06-10-2004 23:49									#33
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Darsnan is American.

I know him well enough.

His command of the english language is excellent (for a Yank ).

	06-10-2004 23:50									#34
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quote: ... or made permanent

Just a word of caution with regard to the rule of the game. You know that coop victory is disabled so permanent pact is not possible. I'd think same goes to permanent treaty too, don't you think?

	07-10-2004 00:03									#35
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Well, technically a permapact is possible, but somewhat meaningless as only the team transcending, or conquering (or cornering the market or getting voted el Supremo) will win

In this game's context I'd assume it to mean a "for always, but may the best team win" kind of pact

(and I had a little fun in our ambassadorial forum, censoring my offer to intervene with yang on the Gaians' behalf. Now Kass can offer it as a legitimate trading item)

And note, too, that they are - in that forum - suggesting tech-parity trades (level 1 for level 1, level 3 for level 3, etc) - prolly means that we'll have to give up either a 1 and a 2 (maybe Applied Physics - a 1 - and Nonlinear math - a 2) for Ind Auto (a 3) or else Gene Splicing (3) on its own for Ind Auto

G.

	07-10-2004 00:22									#36
	Remove this text

Another possible bargaining chip - information

(this posted in the General Covert Ops thread):

Note that the Hive has only 1 probe team (but it's on the move, as it's not showing up in any base's garrison). It is homed to Labor Network (their most southerly base) so I'm assuming it's en-route to infiltrate the Gaians

	07-10-2004 00:28									#37
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Krysias: Thanks for the support. I do appreciate a great deal if someone makes me suggestions and proposes corrections, I feel uncomfortable running things all by myself, not getting any feedback from others.

As to my typing, well, years of rigorous practice

quote: Originally posted by Snowflake Just a word of caution with regard to the rule of the game. You know that coop victory is disabled so permanent pact is not possible. I'd think same goes to permanent treaty too, don't you think?

Certainly, of course. I think in this context permanent means more like "won't have to be renewed every now and then" rather than "will never be broken".

I am going to throw the tech proposal I detailed before to the board and see what they'll come up with. We'll make concessions if we need to, but have to appear like we're just about to get IndAuto ourselves or something to that effect, lest they try to milk us for all its worth.

The information bargaining chips are excellent, thanks to our diligent Covert Ops. I do agree that we'll *probably* end up offering Gene Splicing for IndAuto, but we have to at least *pretend* to be quite indifferent about it. Failing all else, we could hint that Yang is enroute with that probe and that perhaps we'll be able to trade it off of him should he steal it from them...

	07-10-2004 00:55									#38
	Kaptain "Lightning Fingers" Krysia's Krusader Has Finished Typing... Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

To make things easier on me Kassiopeia; your in italics, my answers are in regular writing.


Negotiating just simply needs time.

- Yeah. But not neccessarily "lots" of time. Multi-player games can sure swing swiftly when human factions start interacting. If we should enter in a long term relationship with the Gaians, we may well be able to leave the Morganites and Angels in our rover exhaust fumes...


(Why Senior? Both imply that there are several? I find Chief more Spartan.)

- "Cheif" is commonly reserved for the non-commissioned officer class (cheif warrant officer, etc.). While "Senior" applies to commisioned ranks (senior duty officer, etc.), which with the rank of "Major", you are.


(this is just icing on the cake, why not)

- Shows that you will be willing to put in your own personal extra effort.


(I can't see a nuance difference between "if" and "although" here, can you elaborate? I do find "if" more impolite in a certain way)

- 10 years is a long time when you start a flurry of tech trades. We can "theoretically" have DAP technology by then; should we hammer out a complex deal now.

Beasides: If I were playing the Peace Keepers, or the Gaians, I would be worried about politness. Since we are Spartans, although we will always be considerate, I want them to know that we are more concerned with the sharpness of our spears.


(I like things that are divisible by five myself; I think more than eight might make them a bit more receptible?)

- That depends on how much experience their own negotiator has in multi-player games. See my answer just above. Also shows that we calculate and put thought into things, hence we're not amateurs. That might "spike" them to getting the ball rolling.


(removed the "deemed", gives it a more stern tone)

- Okay.


(true, we need not specify the term)

- Nod.


Of course, if we start to nitpick over every word and phrase, diplomacy certainly won't be going as swiftly as you'd like.

- And that's why your in charge! So you can cut through all that. (And didn't you previously ask for our thoughts?)



"Lady Skye" is an actual member on the boards, some Gaian has registered the user and is using it to talk to us. I think addressing "it" is prudent.

- Prudent is striking them before they strike us. That is my mentality. That is our leaders mentality. That is the Spartan mentality.

- All this Lady Skye demonstrates to me is that someone is willing to hide behind a picture. They're masking their identity. Thus a form of deception.


------------------------------------------------


Everything expressed here, and in most of my posts, are just my way of looking at things, coupled with my own experience. By no means, should any of you take this as crticism. Quite the opposite. I learn how you all think by these exchanges and can thus improve my outlook on things.

	07-10-2004 01:00									#39
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Not a bad tactic to use. I'm sure that the Gaians have a probe or 2 in service, but maybe not at the appropriate base ('cos the AI knows where human players' defenders are)

Here are the Hive techs as at 2140 (with an arrow pointing to those on our "shopping list" when our probes get active at his coastal bases):

Attachment: hivetechs-2140.jpg
This has been downloaded 27 time(s).

	07-10-2004 01:02									#40
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*laugh*

I see you posted while I was typing in the box.

	07-10-2004 01:04									#41
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And now Googlie has done the same.

*laugh some more*

You sure that's in the correct thread Major Recording Occifer of the Junta...?

	07-10-2004 01:08									#42
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I changed the title to "Senior Diplomat (Officer)", although we're not using US ranks directly, they have been a great inspiration.

I also changed the term to eight turns just to keep them on their toes.

And I just posted it. Also posted the tech trade proposal.

We need not be silvertongued, but I think a certain degree of politeness should be a given. The Lady Skye thing is a facade, yes, but an inconsequential one, and I don't think we lose anything by following their lead on that for a bit. A small concession in hopes of larger counter-ones, if you will.

	07-10-2004 01:09									#43
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

As the historian I should point out that the Gaians have kept Lady Skye alive in their initial roleplay, as people who were around in the beginning would notice. As apposed to what the Spartans did to their beloved leader Santiago.

	07-10-2004 01:10									#44
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

If they are willing to give BioGen or IndBase, which one do we want? The latter, what with Morgan already having BioGen - or does BiogGen lead to something we want?

	07-10-2004 01:51									#45
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Biogen leads to Gene Splicing (which we have) and "Secrets" (which we'll get eventually from Zak). Plus, it gives rec ranks and the HGP (already gone to Morgan)

So I'd give it a miss

Ind Base gives Synth Armor (level 2) and leads to HEC which gives Plasma Armor (level 3). It's preferable to any other level 1 tech that we lack.

we can get most level 2 techs thru payment (eg Eth Calc from Zak or Doc Loyalty from Yang) or from probing.

I'd be inclined to give a big yawn to level 1 and 2 techs unless for Ind Base, which we shouldn't give up too much for

G.

	07-10-2004 01:59									#46
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Okay. I'll be gunning for the level two and three techs then, with IndAuto as the obvious main goal. What else do you think they have that we might want? What do we not want to give them? I think at least DocFlex is out of the question.

	07-10-2004 02:20									#47
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The message in the Gaian Meeting Room looks excellent Kassiopeia, good work

Mentioning the potential Hive pact that explicitly was rather blunt, which I really liked That'll get them talking amongst themselves ... We might be able to put some pressure on them and get a favourable trade or two.

	07-10-2004 02:24									#48
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I'll work on something - mull things over in my mind...


One question:

Besides; Industrial Base, Biogenetics, Industrial Economics, Industrial Automation; what do we know that they have which we don't?


Edit: verified some obvious techs.

Last edited by KrysiasKrusader on 07-10-2004 at 02:47

	07-10-2004 03:08									#49
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hmmm, I don't see that proposal that we sent them as having very good chances. If I were the Gaians, I'd say screw the Spartans if they want IA for only a level 1 tech + diplo support. Why not offer them NLmath instead?

Apart from that, the rest of the stuff sounds great. Excellent message with the subtle references to various things.

Also, I don't see any of those level 1 or 2 techs as being useful. Those are all techs that we can probe off of Yang, Zak, or Lal. So I would say, don't accept any techs except for IA.

	07-10-2004 03:37									#50
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quote: Hmmm, I don't see that proposal that we sent them as having very good chances.

It's not supposed to. I'm testing the waters here, see what they'll come up with. I'd rather underdo the offer than overdo it. If they outright refuse to negotiate, we'll be in a trickier situation, but I'm hoping they'll understand the "rules of engagement".

	07-10-2004 08:27									#51
	Put an end to popups!

And I'm sure that they understand the "rules of engagement" as well (after all, they did start with an offer of level-1 techs (Industrial Base or Biogenetics) although they know that we don't yet have Ind Auto)

G.

	07-10-2004 08:45									#52
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Ah, gotcha. Well, we don't need any of those level 1 or 2 techs, so I guess we'll just have to hold out until they offer IA. If they aren't forthcoming with it as we would like, then we can always shop around for it, or at least threaten to do so.

	07-10-2004 09:26									#53
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I say attack. But I always say that. But attacking without more information would be foolhardy. Do we know their map or location? we definately need that.

I'm against long term friendship either way. They don't have much to offer us. They are weak, and deserve to be crushed. It's our only chance of staying in this game. If we can't take on the hive, then we should stomp the weak gaians.

	07-10-2004 12:50									#54
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ah, but the whole idea is that the Gaians are weak. We can use them as a tool to take out the others, and then we'll be facing only one opponent: the weak Gaians. That would make endgame a breeze.

	07-10-2004 16:31									#55
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They are not going for the trade, as expected. They claim to have won battles against Yang so they aren't too worried about him. In any case, I'm going to offer the Gene Splicing for IndAuto. They seem to be in a hurry to make a trade so I'll suggest that right away. They also seem to have a really big need for Doc:Mob, I guess is despite their wormies they want to start climbing up the Doctrine ladder as quickly as possible. I'm going to try to use that as leverage, maybe I'll be able to wring off IndAuto from them for GeneSplicing and DocMob, or possibly a level two tech and DocMob. I do believe IndAuto is a crucial tech enough, we could even consider it a level four tech.

	07-10-2004 16:37									#56
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I decided to piggyback the DocMob <-> IndBase trade with the IndAuto <-> Gene Splicing trade. I'm thinking they'll want DocMob out of us ASAP, so it'll improve the likelihood of them approving the other parity trade. Plus it'll speed things up in the negotiations as Krysia has been hoping for.

I have seen the awesome effect crawlers can have on an economy, so I'm sure that we'd end up in the positive after this trade. As far as I can see DocMob shouldn't have too much a use for the Gaians with their wormies able to traverse quickly through fungus. They probably have a fungus barrier between themselves and Yang, so it's like fish in a barrel for them to repel Yang's advances.

Naturally Gene Splicing will make pop-booming easier for them, but we can hardly use it to popboom without crawlers. Right?

	07-10-2004 17:00									#57
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Great diplomacy you're doing!
It would be great if they'd accept the trades you've offered now.
If they act a little difficult, perhaps you could remind them the value of IndAut is reduced for us due to our inability to run Wealth? And increase the value of Gene Splicing by reminding them it's a prerequisite for EcoEng, while IndAut doesn't lead to any fantastic tech choices? (They don't need to know DocIni is one of our goals)

Re popbooming without crawlers, it's certainly possible! Check out this thread for an example.

	07-10-2004 17:02									#58
	Remove this text

Re: popbooming - fascinating. We still need the industry benefit though.

The wealth part I must add if they're acting uppity, I didn't even realize that

I did remind them that Gene Splicing will open up research choices that will help them studying the planet, you could think of EcoEng as one of them.

	07-10-2004 19:16									#59
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It appears that they (at least Illuminatus) like the 2 for 2 trade - in the Embassy forums they say they'll poll their membership on it.

Is it worth asking them if they have the Angels' commlink? And if they'd be willing to swap it for Lal's (assuming my theory of how Buster has set up the factions is correct, they won't have been able to pass thru the Angels to get to Lal yet.)

But I'm sure that by now the Gaians have met the Angels - or vice versa

As long as we hold on to Zak's (and don't give Lal's to Yang) we can hold off Yang calling elections as long as we deem strategically beneficial to us (to act as the honest broker in a few deals)

	07-10-2004 20:20									#60
	Put an end to popups!

Yup, it's looking good so far. Since you've stated that we can probe off those level 2 techs quite easily, I see no need to trade for them with the Gaians? Or do we need something ASAP?

I'll ask for the commlink - it's important news if they have had contact with the Angels. We need to be aware of who has been talking to whom.