08-10-2004 01:26									#271
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You can't perceive things that only exist in your mind deary.

You can, Bush perceived a threat of WMDs in Iraq.

	08-10-2004 02:38									#273
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Value is only in our minds, Kid. Even basic necessities, like food. If I've already eaten, more food is unnecessary and thus becomes a luxury, not a necessity. It's value to me drops.

Does it matter if it's in your mind? Are you saying value doesn't exist?

quote: It's total folly to try and set an objective value to something, because there are 6 billion people on this planet and each of us has different wants/needs and means. Something very valueable to you might be junk to me, and vice-versa. -Arrian

This isn't an argument concerning the current debate.

	08-10-2004 02:40									#274
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Some of you are caught up on the price thing. Value is independent of price. In fact, it exists exclucively to trade itself.

What value do things have that you produce or do for yourself?

	08-10-2004 02:42									#275
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quote: Originally posted by Drachasor per·ceive Audio pronunciation of "perceive" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-sv) tr.v. per·ceived, per·ceiv·ing, per·ceives 1. To become aware of directly through any of the senses, especially sight or hearing. 2. To achieve understanding of; apprehend. It's number 2. -Drachasor

Ok then. Not all of us are perceiving value.

	08-10-2004 03:27									#276
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I think this is a good explaination. Thanx to Arrian.

Arrian is saying that value exists in our mind. That's sort of true, but not quite. Desire exists in our mind. Things that satisfy our desires have value. In order for our desires to be satisfied, work must be done. Therefore work creates value, and value satisfies desire.

	08-10-2004 03:29									#277
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Yes but value is only as much as the desire.

	08-10-2004 03:30									#278
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Therefore desire creates value, not the actual work.

	08-10-2004 03:32									#279
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Therefore desire creates value, not the actual work.

What if the good or service already exists.

	08-10-2004 03:33									#280
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Yes but value is only as much as the desire.

Desire is more actually.

	08-10-2004 03:34									#281
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Well the good or service exists at all times but it has no inherent value. It is not untill somebody desires to make use of the good or service that it gets value attributed to it.

	08-10-2004 03:35									#282
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quote: Desire is more actually.

Well yes but thats only because the cost price of something takes into account all other factors that go into production.

	08-10-2004 03:37									#283
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Well the good or service exists at all times but it has no inherent value. It is not untill somebody desires to make use of the good or service that it gets value attributed to it.

If I want pancakes. I make pancakes. My desire doesn't make the pancakes. The value is in the satisfying of the desire. The desire doesn't satisfy itself. I satisfy it by my work.

	08-10-2004 03:38									#284
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Take for example say somebody who sells car stereos in ummmm the middle of the Amazon. They are working away selling car stereos but there is noone about to buy them. Therefore he makes no money and his work is not valued.

Or possibly a better example, a factory produces a new kinda of candy bar. Unfortunately for the company nobody likes this new candy bar. So no candy bars sell. The company makes no money and declares bankruptcy. The workers who worked don't get paid. Therefore there work had no value to them.

	08-10-2004 03:39									#285
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Well yes but thats only because the cost price of something takes into account all other factors that go into production.

Price has nothing to do with it. We can never satisfy all of our wants because of the limitations of value.

	08-10-2004 03:40									#286
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quote: If I want pancakes.

You wanted pancakes. Therefore you desired pancakes. Your desire made you get up and make pancakes. And your desire was satiated when you made and ate pancakes.

Also what value would you attribute to the making of pancakes?

	08-10-2004 03:40									#287
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quote: We can never satisfy all of our wants because of the limitations of value.

Explain?

	08-10-2004 03:44									#288
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Take for example say somebody who sells car stereos in ummmm the middle of the Amazon. They are working away selling car stereos but there is noone about to buy them. Therefore he makes no money and his work is not valued.

His work has no value because he doesn't produce anything. He only sells things.

quote: Or possibly a better example, a factory produces a new kinda of candy bar. Unfortunately for the company nobody likes this new candy bar. So no candy bars sell. The company makes no money and declares bankruptcy. The workers who worked don't get paid. Therefore there work had no value to them.

Ah, true, but that doesn't mean that the candy bars had no value. The candy bars very well could have satisfied a desire, but the price was too high. Value has absolutely nothing to do with exchange or price.

	08-10-2004 03:46									#289
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho You wanted pancakes. Therefore you desired pancakes. Your desire made you get up and make pancakes. And your desire was satiated when you made and ate pancakes.

Nope. I desire pancakes now as a matter of fact, but I'm at school where I can't get pancakes. The value is only created if I make the pancakes.

quote: Also what value would you attribute to the making of pancakes?

I have no idea. That doesn't concern me. Why does it concern you?

	08-10-2004 03:47									#290
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quote: Ah, true, but that doesn't mean that the candy bars had no value. The candy bars very well could have satisfied a desire, but the price was too high. Value has absolutely nothing to do with exchange or price.

I didn't mention the price of the candy bar. Just that nobody liked the candy bar. Or rather nobody desired to have the candy bar.

	08-10-2004 03:48									#291
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious His work has no value because he doesn't produce anything. He only sells things. .

Don't be petty-- Imagine he BUILDS a commodity worthless where it is-- For the prefection of the example imagine it would cost more to transport the item than it could be sold for.

	08-10-2004 03:48									#292
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho I didn't mention the price of the candy bar. Just that nobody liked the candy bar. Or rather nobody desired to have the candy bar.

Of course there is no value to things that no one wants at all.

	08-10-2004 03:49									#293
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Than value isn't equal to the amount of work that is put into, it also requires desire or a market.

	08-10-2004 03:50									#294
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So there is no inherent time value to money then.

	08-10-2004 03:50									#295
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I think you just shot your own argument in the foot.

	08-10-2004 03:51									#296
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho quote: We can never satisfy all of our wants because of the limitations of value. Explain?

Value is limited to the amount of goods in the economiy. Our desires are practically limitless.

	08-10-2004 03:52									#297
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Than value isn't equal to the amount of work that is put into, it also requires desire or a market.

Yep

	08-10-2004 03:52									#298
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quote: Value is limited to the amount of goods in the economiy. Our desires are practically limitless.

Yes granted. But then doesn't it follow that our desires for these limited goods/services mean that our desires set their value as we compete with each other to fulfill said desires?

	08-10-2004 03:53									#299
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho I think you just shot your own argument in the foot.

Who? Japher?

	08-10-2004 03:54									#300
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quote: Of course there is no value to things that no one wants at all.

If somebody puts in the work and nobody wants the product then that work is valueless correct?