07-10-2004 10:21									#241
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Well you admit land is a factor of production? Well then land is also a factor of production so land is a consideration in the value as well. Therefore labour is not the creating of the value as the good or service wasn't just created by labour.

Land is more of a parameter. There is a value to it, because it is needed, like unextracted raw materials. That value isn't created (at least not by man). It just exists.

	07-10-2004 10:22									#242
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quote: Originally posted by Iskandar Reza I think what he means is labor=energy. That seems to be the only way any of his arguments make better sense. Well, I'm off to play SMAX.

	07-10-2004 10:23									#243
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So why can't the same argument be given to labour? Labour is needed. Labour is just a parameter to the making of whatever product/service.

	07-10-2004 10:23									#244
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quote: It does NOT produce anything of value in the economy. It is a transfer of income. One person used to get value from the money, but now another person gets value from the money.

So you don't think that the transfer of money can lead to greater production/wealth creation? Weird.

And there you go again, tying value to some (undefined) absolute...

	07-10-2004 10:25									#245
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho I'd agree with that. But what happens in the instance where a machine is the only factor in production? Or if the only labour involvement is someone standing there makind sure the machine doesn't break down.

Labor builds and maintains the machines.

	07-10-2004 10:26									#246
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho So why can't the same argument be given to labour? Labour is needed. Labour is just a parameter to the making of whatever product/service.

It's just silly to say that land creates things. Even if that were true, so we compensate the land?

	07-10-2004 10:27									#247
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So? The labour to build and maintain those machines just exist. What makes you think there is a utility value involved?

	07-10-2004 10:28									#248
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Land helps creates things. Just like labour does. Labour helps create things usually existing raw materials/land/whatever else goes into the product.

	07-10-2004 10:29									#249
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd So you don't think that the transfer of money can lead to greater production/wealth creation? Weird.

Absolutely it can.

	07-10-2004 10:31									#250
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Do you define peoples perception as smoke and mirrors?

	07-10-2004 10:32									#251
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OK, just making sure you could at least see that point - you were implying otherwise, at least as I understood you.

quote: Labor builds and maintains the machines.

So do you claim that being paid a wage to maintain someone else's machine should give you a share in the ownership of what the machine produces?

	07-10-2004 10:36									#252
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I'm getting too tired now. I'll talk to you guys tomorrow about this.

	07-10-2004 10:40									#253
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd So do you claim that being paid a wage to maintain someone else's machine should give you a share in the ownership of what the machine produces?

Yeah.

Off to bed now. I know there will be something to respond to about this tomorrow.

	07-10-2004 10:42									#254
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Do you define peoples perception as smoke and mirrors?

What are you trying to do to me? I'm very tired. I can't figure that out right now.

I'll talk to you tomorrow.

	07-10-2004 10:49									#255
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quote: Yeah.

As an aside, then, would it be fair to give them a share in the ownership, and not pay them a wage? Sounds like giving them both is double dipping...

In any case, the point of a wage is to compensate someone for labor performed, in this case, maintaining machines. Sure, in this case, without the people to maintain the machines, the machines could not function, but that doesn't automatically confer ownership to the maintenance guy - all it does is entitle him to negotiate for a wage in exchange for labor. If he believes that his wage should include an ownership stake, then he'll simply be out of a job and someone else will be hired, who negotiates more reasonably. Remember, without the machine, the maintenance guy wouldn't have a job. Computers need computer techs, but computer techs also need computers (sure, they could hypothetically do something else, but whatever that "something else" is, they still need it). Strikes me as sort of a wash:

1)Man invests capital to build machine
2)Man realizes he needs a specialist to maintain machine
3)Specialist needs job
4)Man decides that the value of a working machine outweighs the value of the probable wage he will pay the specialist
5)Specialist decides that the value he sees in his wage is sufficient to justify maintaining the machine.

Why should the specialist get anything further than a wage? It really isn't fair - his wage already compensates him for his labor.

	07-10-2004 10:55									#256
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quote: What are you trying to do to me? I'm very tired. I can't figure that out right now. I'll talk to you tomorrow.

Cool cool. Make sure you do. Have a good sleep.

	07-10-2004 11:03									#257
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quote: And there you go again, tying value to some (undefined) absolute...

DF complaining that others try to value undefinable absolutes. Thoughts of pots and kettles come to mind...

	07-10-2004 16:55									#258
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Do you define peoples perception as smoke and mirrors?

Saving money does not create value. Spending money is what stimulates work, which in turn creates value. Are we together on this or should we go into this?

	07-10-2004 17:00									#259
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Why should the specialist get anything further than a wage? It really isn't fair - his wage already compensates him for his labor.

No it doesn't, but that's kind of another matter. Sure the matters are related, but I'm trying to keep this thread from degenerating into what similar threads have done in the past.

There's nothing really wrong with your argument, but I just don't want to respond to it in detail unless you can connect it to the debate as to whether money creates value.

	07-10-2004 17:28									#260
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Time is a quality of the money : we generally think that to-day money is of better quality than next month money (could also be the reverse); therefore more units of next month money are equivalent to less units of to-day money. As a practicality in calculations, we use a so called *interest rate* to describe the quality.

	07-10-2004 17:41									#261
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho So? The labour to build and maintain those machines just exist. What makes you think there is a utility value involved?

There's a utility value associated with land. The thing is land is not a conscious being. If it were then it might demand compensation.

	07-10-2004 17:42									#262
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quote: Originally posted by DAVOUT As a practicality in calculations, we use a so called *interest rate* to describe the quality.

This is where it should stop. Unfortunately it doesn't.

	08-10-2004 00:14									#263
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quote: There's nothing really wrong with your argument, but I just don't want to respond to it in detail unless you can connect it to the debate as to whether money creates value.

My argument was an example of how value is created by perceptions - the specialist saw a value in accepting a wage to do a job.

	08-10-2004 00:42									#264
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd My argument was an example of how value is created by perceptions - the specialist saw a value in accepting a wage to do a job.

OK, but the specialist produced the work, the perception didn't.

	08-10-2004 00:48									#265
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Having read the first couple of pages and skimming this one, it would seem that the logical disconnect Kid is experiencing has to do with the very definition of "value."

Kid seems to think things have some sort of objective value in the world. This is not so. Value is subjective - a given item has varying value to different people in different situations at different times.

Would I pay $2 for a bottle of watter right now? Hell, no! There is a water fountain right around the corner from my cubical.

Would I pay $2 for a bottle if I'd spent the day wandering around Mexico City in 90+ degree heat? Yeah, I'd suck it up and meet that price. I'm hot, thirsty, and don't want Monty's revenge!

Any difference in the water? No, of course not. But that's really irrelevent. What changed is ME, or more precisely, my wants/needs.

Human beings define what is valueable to us. Things do not have some sort of innate value.

-Arrian

	08-10-2004 00:52									#266
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Having read the first couple of pages and skimming this one, it would seem that the logical disconnect Kid is experiencing has to do with the very definition of "value."

Nope. I'm not trying to define how to measure value in this thread. I debating what creates it.

	08-10-2004 00:56									#267
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"Creates" value? Value is perception. It's only in the mind.

I mean, seriously, why have human beings been killing each other for centuries over gold? It's a weak metal that looks kinda pretty. It's value, to me anyway, seems absurd. Yet it is. Why? Perception. People like it, and it's relatively rare to boot.

-Arrian

	08-10-2004 01:05									#268
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian "Creates" value? Value is perception. It's only in the mind. I mean, seriously, why have human beings been killing each other for centuries over gold? It's a weak metal that looks kinda pretty. It's value, to me anyway, seems absurd. Yet it is. Why? Perception. People like it, and it's relatively rare to boot. -Arrian

You can't perceive things that only exist in your mind deary.

	08-10-2004 01:12									#269
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious You can't perceive things that only exist in your mind deary.

per·ceive Audio pronunciation of "perceive" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pr-sv)
tr.v. per·ceived, per·ceiv·ing, per·ceives

1. To become aware of directly through any of the senses, especially sight or hearing.
2. To achieve understanding of; apprehend.

It's number 2.

-Drachasor

	08-10-2004 01:18									#270
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Value is only in our minds, Kid. Even basic necessities, like food. If I've already eaten, more food is unnecessary and thus becomes a luxury, not a necessity. It's value to me drops.

It's total folly to try and set an objective value to something, because there are 6 billion people on this planet and each of us has different wants/needs and means. Something very valueable to you might be junk to me, and vice-versa.

-Arrian